NYC ATHEISTS MARCH MEETUP - THE WTC / 911 "MIRACLE CROSS" LAW SUIT

  • March 18, 2014 · 7:00 PM
  • Stone Creek


GROUP LEADER: MICHAEL DORIAN



 

 

SUBJECT: Developments in American Atheists' 9/11 "Miracle Cross" Lawsuit. AA and NYCA got a day in court to appeal the decision to include the "Miracle Cross" in the September 11th Museum.

  

Come hear how things played out in this story that continues to garner major media attention.  NYCA's recent demonstration was well attended by our membership despite frigid weather. The case still provokes controversy as AA and NYCA stand strong in a battle to safeguard the separation of church and state in this significant and high profile lawsuit. 

Our opposition--the Board of Directors of the 9/11 Museum--claims the "Miracle Cross" should be in the museum because it is "historic" and because other museums also contain religious art.  We counter that "miracles" cannot be history because they are supernatural. History is based on the real. For example, the Shroud of Turin is rejected by historians as a part of real history,

We also counter that the religious art at, say, the Metropolitan, is there not because it is religious but because of its style, technique and the artist's talent. No Caravaggio at the Met has ever been consecrated, nor masses conducted in front of it; nobody prays to it, leaves money in envelopes under it or attaches mementoes to it. The Miracle Cross, on the other hand, is a piece of debris, one of hundreds of i-beams found on the ground after the Twin Towers went down.  It was uprighted, cleaned up, declared to be a message from god, mounted on a pedestal, making it higher than its original 17 feet, and Masses conducted in front of it. It has been totally "religionized" and claimed to be a miracle. We Atheists feel it is a a hoax and constitutes "product placement" on the part of the Catholic church, who seek to dominate a million-dollar location.

Learn more about the progress of this historic case this Tuesday night in our always inspired discussion hosted by AA New York Regional Director Michael Dorian.  

 

LOCATION: Stone Creek -140 East 27th St. (3rd/Lex) - REAR ROOM

 

COST: Free, but participants are expected to purchase drink or food to compensate Stone Creek for their space.

 

 

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  • Brian J

    It was a good meetup.Good discussion. :)

    March 18

    • Jane E.

      Yes, the meeting itself was good. The censorship of conversation of Atheist patrons afterward was not. I shall try to get to the bottom of it, OK?

      March 19

  • Eileen Marie R.

    So after the meeting tonight and after Micheal left, those of us remaining had our own discussion about Jesus and whether or not he existed. It was our discussion about philosophy, history versus biblical times. Suddenly by the manager, we were asked to keep our voices down ,in an empty bar, as to not offend believers-- though I do not believe we were being loud and obnoxious. Then we were finally asked to change the subject though we were not trying to 'De-convert" the other three people in the bar. We were having a non argumentative discussion about the historicity of Jesus and our local tavern told us we could not continue! REALLY?? Stop having a legally protected conversation? We were not even fighting amongst ourselves let along with the three other people in the bar! And no one was being belligerent. Wow! Seriously folks -no one was drunk and obnoxious-- in case anyone was wondering. It was just a conversation. OMG! (ahem).

    1 · March 18

    • Brian J

      Yes, that was annoying. Lol!

      March 19

  • William C.

    I do agree with Jane that it is the Roman Catholics who are behind this cross. Where I live there is a similar cross, I-beam memorial outside a Catholic Church, where it belongs. If it is true that the memorial I-beam at the WTC memorial has been referred to as a "miracle cross" then I think that it should be presented as evidence, in court that it is not just historical debris. I have not been to the Memorial. I do not know if the I-beam/cross is presented. Unfortunately I have a prior commitment and will not be able to attend what promises to be a lively discussion.

    March 18

  • William C.

    One problem that I see is that the directors of the museum did not refer to it as a "Miracle" Cross. I do not recall hearing it referred to as a "Miracle" Cross at the hearing. That it was a "sign from god" is not their claim. I do not think that they dispute that it was a cross beam that was cleaned up etc. Nor do I think that are claiming that it was the only crossbeam that was part of the debris. What an their claim is, is that this is historic debris in that resembled a cross and that it gave comfort to first responders. But it only gave comfort to some, specifically Christian first responders and more specifically to Roman Catholic working at the site.

    1 · March 17

    • Jane E.

      Brian, it's a separation of church and state issue and has nothing to do with whether you have a problem with it. The museum is on government property and $600 million of our tax money has gone to build and maintain it. The cross is huge and dominates the 9/11 museum. The name of the game for the Catholics is PRODUCT PLACEMENT and they have chosen a million dollar location.

      March 18

    • Brian J

      I know. I was just giving my two cents. And honestly, this shouldn't be an issue.

      March 18

  • William C.

    The argument that Atheists may be offended is not, in my opinion a good one, even though it is the case. A better argument would be that all non-Christians, may be offended. I would argue that if there was to be a "symbol" in the museum that it should be a "secular" symbol, represents ALL Americans. Like the American Bald Eagle. Which has no religious significance whatsoever and is much less likely to offend anyone. I would suggest that such a symbol me made from the debris from the WTC. Maybe even the debris from the so-called "Miracle" cross.

    1 · March 17

    • Jane E.

      Good points, Bill. Though I'm not crazy about a bald eagle. Still, a 20-foot high bald eagle made out of I-beams might be worth the price of admission...

      March 17

    • William C.

      It doesn't have to be a bald eagle. It could be some other American symbol that is secular and American. I do think it is a good idea that whatever symbol is placed there it should be made from I-beams from the WTC. I do agree with you that the effort should be done now and not 40 years from now. I think that the cards are stacked in favor of the Christians. I think that the cards are stacked not only against Atheists but against ALL people who are not Christians. I think it would be a good idea to try and enlist the aid of ALL Americans who are not Christians.

      March 18

  • Jane E.

    I'll be there because I'm a plaintiff in this case. The cards are stacked against us because of sentiment about everything concerned with 9/11. But we've got to make the effort now or 40 years from now, the opposition is going to say "Too Late! Why didn't you sue 40 years ago? Now it's established in the museum!" They have done that with other religious symbols. It took 25 years to get that Memorial cross down in San Diego.

    March 15

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