Re: [aynrand-167] Objectivist meetup: topic update from September moderator

From: user 5.
Sent on: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 1:45 PM
Right on!

On Feb 5,[masked]:34 AM, Tony Arjona <[address removed]> wrote:
Thank You!
       Heidi, your response is quite to the point.  You have illuminated the Most important aspect of a free and civilized society... PROPERTY RIGHTS.  Once respect has been established for the right of ownership, all rights of the individual are thus established. 
 Tony

Notes on Immigration

1. Ayn Rand's position: "How could I advocate restricting immigration when I wouldn't be alive today if our borders had been closed?"*

...Ayn Rand did enter the US during a time of restricted immigration. She jumped through the necessary hoops put before her and was finally granted citizenship. She didn't just walk right in and was given rights as a citizen!

2. MY VIEW follows in #2-6. Man has a right to life; and a concomitant right to live anywhere in the world he likes. Passing laws that restrict this right, such as quotas, is immoral and illegal.

...... Man does not have a "right" to a country that was founded by and created by other men. Remember, this country is not a natural primary. It is a creation of some men, and CAN NOT AND SHOULD NOT ever be thought of as "COMMUNITY PROPERTY".  Living in such a country is a privilege and will be awarded only to those that accept the doctrines of that nation, are willing to contribute to that nation and are willing to rebuke their rights to citizenship in any other nation.

3. Where you are born is totally a matter of luck since you have no choice or control.. But luck cannot/should not be a basis for refusing entry. "Sorry, you're out of luck, our quota of your kind is filled" is actually aggression in disguise. It's a big, blind hand pushing you backwards, possibly to your death.

......Then those who aren't admitted to this club, should establish a free country of their own, just as our founding fathers created ours.

4. Anyone who is "pure of heart" may travel anywhere. Those who provide travel are partly, or somewhat, responsible for verifying the "purity". Criminals (serious) are not welcome here and therefore there is a need for orderly vetting of newcomers, as was done by Ellis Island in the past.

....NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE ELSE!!! Our government, as an entity, is responsible for keeping our country safe and in economic order. Opening our borders to immigrants without restraint would necessitate our government abandoning its post as our protector in order to provide sanctuary to the worlds oppressed.

5. A continent cannot be "owned" by anybody. Therefore anyone is free to go anywhere and purchase or rent property , or develop a piece of property not already owned. Deeds are a means of registering ownership.

....A country IS a created entity. Therefore, the country IS owned by the founders and the people who are awarded "citizenship" by the founders or the successors of the founders (existing government).

6. There are no real arguments against free immigration. If you have any, please volunteer them.

...SEE ABOVE

Heidi Gresko



Kathleen Nickerson


On Feb 2,[masked]:13 PM, Tony Arjona <[address removed]> wrote:


This is all hooey!  My sovereignty starts at my bedroom door and extends to the land around me and that of my neighbors and kin.  It ends at the borders that I have defined.  We build and maintain society for the benefit of those that righteously participate.  I will always hold judgment over those who come and who pass through my lands.  If they come in peace, I, a civilized person, will prepare ways to allow immigration. You have offered Ellis Island as an example.  That is a construct with which I agree.  But to race across MY frontiers haphazardly, wreaking crime and disease, is offensive and preposterous.
 
Those who see otherwise are like the ELOI in Jules Verne's "The Time Machine".  They are too docile and indolent to keep what is theirs for very long; specifically their lives.  A classic hypothesis, "had the first Jew shot dead the arresting Gestapo officer...", asks this question,
"Did meekly obeying an aggressor end well?"  Rather, to RESIST and SURVIVE is the common reply.
 
In this case, if one does not assert tribal or national filters to immigration, one's native paradigm is doomed; mortally wounded.  Time best allows peaceful and constructive assimilation where there are bounds and requirements to immigration.  But the case of America today, notwithstanding the powerful attraction of a generous welfare state, is one where immigrants do not seek to become Americans but only to derive the benefits and acquire the assets of an open society.
 
In 382 a.d., the Roman Emperor Valens welcomed the Goths across the Danube River.   For six years Rome was beset by violent reaction of their mistreated guests.  Successful but mortally wounded, Rome suffered countless barbarian attacks and the fissures of Rome's destruction were irreparable.
 
History has repeated the lesson of one society denuding and devouring another; some by force, some by drug addiction and some by endless and relentless resettlement.  Where cultures collide then merge peacefully and with mutual respect, one may also find common sense and goodwill among both parties.  That is not the scenario playing out today.
 
My Opinion, God Bless America,
 
Tony Arjona
 
 

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: [aynrand-167] Objectivist meetup: topic update from September moderator
Date: Wed, 12 Sep[masked]:15:16 -0400

Notes on Immigration

1. Ayn Rand's position: "How could I advocate restricting immigration when I wouldn't be alive today if our borders had been closed?"*

2. MY VIEW follows in #2-6. Man has a right to life; and a concomitant right to live anywhere in the world he likes. Passing laws that restrict this right, such as quotas, is immoral and illegal.

3. Where you are born is totally a matter of luck since you have no choice or control.. But luck cannot/should not be a basis for refusing entry. "Sorry, you're out of luck, our quota of your kind is filled" is actually aggression in disguise. It's a big, blind hand pushing you backwards, possibly to your death.

4. Anyone who is "pure of heart" may travel anywhere. Those who provide travel are partly, or somewhat, responsible for verifying the "purity". Criminals (serious) are not welcome here and therefore there is a need for orderly vetting of newcomers, as was done by Ellis Island in the past.

5. A continent cannot be "owned" by anybody. Therefore anyone is free to go anywhere and purchase or rent property , or develop a piece of property not already owned. Deeds are a means of registering ownership.

6. There are no real arguments against free immigration. If you have any, please volunteer them.



Kathleen Nickerson

9/12/07





*From "Ayn Rand Answers" edited by Robert Mayhew, Ford Hall Forum of 1973





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