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Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

From: Marc G.
Sent on: Monday, August 13, 2012 2:38 PM
My prior response: " As to debate, that would be quite dull since we're dealing with just a few sentences and about 30 seconds worth of time, but if that's what it will take to get you to consider what Rand says, so be it."

What part of that don't you understand?

It really is a shame -- for you -- that the U.S.S.R. collapsed. I really can see where you'd have been a great editorial writer fro Pravda!





From: David Wallace <[address removed]>
To: Marc Gerstein <[address removed]>
Sent: Monday, August 13,[masked]:10 PM
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

So yes, to a debate? Is that a yes? 

On your obvious evasion: citing a page from the works of another is a response, but not an answer. In fact, not only is it an evasion but a puerile one at that! 

After all, I am asking you of your own convictions. You endorse the initiation of force. YOU! Now by Wendy right do you do so? 

Don't you know the contents of your own mind? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 13, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

I evaded nothing. I answered you very specifically with a specific cite to Ayn Rand, which is quite valid in a Rand discussion forum. And I've been on line way too long to fall into the trap of trying to cope with someone who pretends to not recognize an answer and keeps repeating fictitious claims of non response-- that's so 1990s!

If you want to come to the next meetup to explain your refusal to consider Rand a legitimate source, I look forward to hearing what you want to say. As to debate, that would be quite dull since we're dealing with just a few sentences and about 30 seconds worth of time, but if that's what it will take to get you to consider what Rand says, so be it.

I am, however, preparing material that will, I hope, generate more interesting discussion interpreting ways Rand's principals might be applied in the real world. So I would expect to move beyond the boring part very quickly.

David <[address removed]> wrote:

Marc, 

I would be happy to meet in person at the next Ayn Rand meet-up. 

We can even schedule an open debate replete with facilitation if the others are willing. 

Would you like to do that? 

Also, 

By your evasion of my simple question you make my point regarding the disingenuous left. You said that I don't know you. But the point is that YOU don't know you. For you endorsed the initiation of force and yet refuse to elucidate the moral system from which you infer that right. 

Everyone else sees this evasion, which is all the more transparent since I am asking what YOU think. Not what you are, or are not. Not what you've read or for that matter what you had for breakfast. But rather the simple verdict of your own mind. 

By what right do you initiate force? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 13, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

Steve,

I'm still somewhat new to the NYC Meetup and have only been to two of them (the last two). I can't recall the names of everyone (it looks to be a well-attended group, so that will take time) and the attendee lists on meetup.com aren't always 100% accurate.  So i can't say for sure if Michael was there.

What I can tell you, at least from the two meetups I attended, is that it looks to be a good group, one in which there is disagreement but in which the tone is respectful and in which challenges appear not as in invitation to yell and curse but as an invitation to review and sharpen one's position . . . which is as positive as it can get. Obviously, nobody can know who will show up in the future and how they'll act, but generally, the demeanor of the NY group seems like it would be quite inhibiting to anyone (even Michael  if he was or will be there) from resorting to "eat shit and die," "suck on a tailpipe," etc.

Is Michael doing a pre-dynamite Howard Roark thing? I'm not so sure. We have one thing going on here that was outside Rand's experience: internet conversation. I've seen in many contexts how people will act on line in ways they wouldn't dream of acting if face to face. I suspect we've all encountered that. It would seem that anonymous forums are more conducive to this sort of thing than those in which people use real names. But it does happen in the latter instances, too. For all we know, Michael might be a nice guy in real life. All we can do here is react to the identity he chooses to reveal in this setting. (BTW anyone interested in internet behavior may find it interesting to check out "The Face of Another" by Kobo Abe. The writing style isn't my favorite . . . quite heavy on the first-person musings. But it is an interesting meditation on matchups between appearances and identity.)


From: stevegam <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, August 13,[masked]:52 AM
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

Michael,
 
I don't think I can have a meaningful dialogue with you.
 
Marc,
 
You were at the last meetup, did you see Michael there?
 
If so, is he typical of the group? I'm guessing that he isn't, but if he is then he must be in the state of mind of Howard Roark, right before he blew up his building, watch out guys.
 
> Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context
> From: [address removed]
> To: [address removed]
> Date: Sun, 12 Aug[masked]:30:26 -0400
>
> Do you scrub your sphincter?
> How about asking me why I prefer to mock you? You're complacence toward any meaningful dialogue is apparent to every free mind as the epitome of cowardice. Buck up, old sport (for I suspect you are as old as you are decrepit).
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 12, 2012, at 6:00 PM, stevegam <[address removed]> wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to determine if you are an objectivist, that's why I asked.
> >
> > Do you attend the meetups regularly?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:
> >
> >> That for you to determine. You're a statist; care to know why?
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:15 PM, stevegam <[address removed]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Michael,
> >>>
> >>> Are you an objectivist?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 2:06 AM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Lol. This is some great righteous vitriol.
> >>>> I mean, why even try with fuck face shit chuggers like tweedle Steve and tweedle Marc? I hope they each write a whole goddam paragraph breaking my nasty letters into tiny little bite sized verdicts of tolerant condemnation.
> >>>> Salute/honor @ David & Jim.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:56 AM, David <[address removed]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Ah, now you're running off my little friend. And I was having such fun.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps this completes my point regarding Rand's rhetorical style in the face of disingenuous hacks who lick the blood of martyrs from the knuckles of tyrants.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:46 AM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Marc, eat shit and die.
> >>>>>> "For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society..." Unlike you, supreme shit chugger, I was forced into the USA at the behest o my mother contractions. This is a forum & group of thinkers. I suggest you stick to YouTube trolling.
> >>>>>> Ps. Die. Please. Fast. No jokes, suck a tail pipe you base communist ;)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 AM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> >>>>>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> >>>>>> This message was sent by Michael Olsen ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> >>>>>> To learn more about Michael Olsen, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/9722183/
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> >>>>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> >>>>> This message was sent by David ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
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> >>>>> Set my mailing list to email me
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> >>>>> As they are sent
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> In one daily email
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> Don't send me mailing list messages
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> >>>>> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> >>>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> >>>> This message was sent by Michael Olsen ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> >>>> To learn more about Michael Olsen, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/9722183/
> >>>> Set my mailing list to email me
> >>>>
> >>>> As they are sent
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> >>>>
> >>>> In one daily email
> >>>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=2
> >>>>
> >>>> Don't send me mailing list messages
> >>>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=0
> >>>> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> >>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> >>> This message was sent by stevegam ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> >>> To learn more about stevegam, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/2817568/
> >>> Set my mailing list to email me
> >>>
> >>> As they are sent
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> >>> In one daily email
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> >>>
> >>> Don't send me mailing list messages
> >>> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=0
> >>> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> >> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> >> This message was sent by Michael Olsen ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> >> To learn more about Michael Olsen, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/9722183/
> >> Set my mailing list to email me
> >>
> >> As they are sent
> >> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=1
> >>
> >> In one daily email
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> >>
> >> Don't send me mailing list messages
> >> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=0
> >> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> > http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> > This message was sent by stevegam ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> > To learn more about stevegam, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/2817568/
> > Set my mailing list to email me
> >
> > As they are sent
> > http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=1
> >
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> >
> > Don't send me mailing list messages
> > http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=0
> > Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/
> This message was sent by Michael Olsen ([address removed]) from The New York City Ayn Rand Group.
> To learn more about Michael Olsen, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/members/9722183/
> Set my mailing list to email me
>
> As they are sent
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>
> In one daily email
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>
> Don't send me mailing list messages
> http://www.meetup.com/aynrand-8/list_prefs/?pref=0
> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
>




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