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Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

From: David
Sent on: Monday, August 13, 2012 7:07 PM

Steve,


"Hey, David try using that line the next time you're in a bar and some guy is kicking your ass for "insulting" his girl friend."

Great question.

  I like that line of thinking because you consider how it applies to existence - or as we say "the real world".

If someone, for any reason , wants to assault you then there is nothing left but to fight.  But for defender this is clearly NOT initiation of force.  It is in fact, self defense. (Oh and FYI, I'm on your side in that fight)

I get why you have that right to self defense - but i do not get why someone has the right to initiate force.  

You also said 

"Let's forget about page 119 too, who gives a crap."

Okay, fair enough.

You also said:

"Objectivism is a philosophy that is unproven in the real world. Since it's based strictly on reason, specifically the reason of one person, it is subject to the law of unintended consequences.

One of the problems of using reason in determining truth is that it assumes that all the important facts necessary to make a reasonable decision are known. This may be true in areas of science and engineering where an engineer writing a computer program or building a bridge can know all that needs to be known. He is omnipotent, a god, in his little closed system so his endeavor using reason will work provided, his reason is sound"

You basic assumptions about reason are themselves false.  Let me tell you why and you can tell me what you think.  The assumption of reason, or the rational method is not that we know everything- quite the contrary, it is rather that knowledge, as Darwin said, "is provisional".  Which is to say "this is the best knowledge we have right now".  Not only is this true for the humanities but even for science, to which you referred.  The important thing to remember here is that a true man of reason will not wax mystical when he lacks knowledge.  This is why I say that mysticism is merely the spiritualization of ignorance.  

I want to add to this because you mentioned love and marriage and such, that reason applies here as well.  For your love is both supremely valid and supremely personal. So asking yourself what you love, why you love, and holding that in the context of your whole life and making a decision as best you can is not only valid but life affirming.  In fact, this may sound corny but objectivism is, epistemologically speaking, a philosophy of love.  That is to say it compels you to ask, "What do I love?"  "What makes me happy?

In short, reason and love are not anti-podes.  They are complementary.

Though so often we have but a dearth of facts, we are still presented with basic options  as volitional beings.  Do nothing, act in this regard, or that regard.  Because existence is actuated and entropy exists and because we seek to sustain our lives, prolong our lives and make them more livable, we are usually choosing the better over the worse.  If you say reason doesn't work well when you lack information, I ask you..what would you use in its place?



On Aug 12, 2012, at 10:30 PM, Michael Olsen wrote:

Do you scrub your sphincter?
How about asking me why I prefer to mock you? You're complacence toward any meaningful dialogue is apparent to every free mind as the epitome of cowardice. Buck up, old sport (for I suspect you are as old as you are decrepit).

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 6:00 PM, stevegam <[address removed]> wrote:

I'm trying to determine if you are an objectivist, that's why I asked.

Do you attend the meetups regularly?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:

That for you to determine. You're a statist; care to know why?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:15 PM, stevegam <[address removed]> wrote:

Michael,

Are you an objectivist?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 2:06 AM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:

Lol. This is some great righteous vitriol.
I mean, why even try with fuck face shit chuggers like tweedle Steve and tweedle Marc? I hope they each write a whole goddam paragraph breaking my nasty letters into tiny little bite sized verdicts of tolerant condemnation.
Salute/honor @ David & Jim.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:56 AM, David <[address removed]> wrote:

Ah, now you're running off my little friend. And I was having such fun.

Perhaps this completes my point regarding Rand's rhetorical style in the face of disingenuous hacks who lick the blood of martyrs from the knuckles of tyrants.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:46 AM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:

Marc, eat shit and die.
"For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society..." Unlike you, supreme shit chugger, I was forced into the USA at the behest o my mother contractions. This is a forum & group of thinkers. I suggest you stick to YouTube trolling.
Ps. Die. Please. Fast. No jokes, suck a tail pipe you base communist ;)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 AM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society



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