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Re: [aynrand-8] A suggestion

From: stevegam
Sent on: Sunday, August 19, 2012 3:01 PM
I'm not saying Ayn Rand is a hypocrite. We all would have done the same thing under the circumstances, besides she paid for the benefits whether she liked it or not, and she deserved them.  For her it was a moral dilemma, for me it would not be. 

Many left wing liberals argue against capitalism while their actions in the market place are incongruent with their "beliefs"

BTW Ayn Rand received Medicare, not Medicaid.
There is a difference. I'm in favor of both. I see society as a friendly jungle. We compete, and if we lose (sometimes it takes more than one try to succeed) we are caught by a safety net where, if we are still young enough, we plan our return.  If we succeed, society applauds us for going from welfare, or bankruptcy to wealth and success. If we are too old to return, then as Vince Lombardi would say "we didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Michael Olsen <[address removed]> wrote:

marc says we're hypocrites for being born in the first place; steve says you're a hypocrite for remaining alive after the fact. both champion death. hypocrisy is the living? both of their premises are rooted in the man hating dogma of original sin; both of their ideologies can only survive with the sanction of self-imposed guilt. i doubt rand suffered that kind of guilt which pays taxes to avoid being deported and yet won't receive the dividends of its own labor in the form of life Medicaid.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2012, at 10:49 AM, stevegam <[address removed]> wrote:

I recently came across this article:

 

"In 2011, news broke that notorious libertarian/objectivist Ayn Rand had accepted Social Security and Medicare in the 1970s after she was diagnosed with lung cancer (unsurprisingly she was a cigarette-cancer connection denier). Among liberal circles, a lot of attention was paid to the hypocrisy angle of all this (and much more to taking SS checks than enrolling in Medicare). A person who spent her life railing against collectivism and dependency accepting the benefits of the very programs her beliefs called "evil."

Hypocrisy isn't the important thing here. Ideological failure is."

 

This, to me, is another example of the law or unintended consequences trumping reason. In the best case, a blind trust of reason to dictate your behavior can make you look ridiculous, as it has done to me in the past, and in the worst case it can ruin your life.

The older I get, and I'm not as old as Michael believes I am, the less faith I have in reason and the more I rely on feeling, experience and rules.

 

Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] A suggestion
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Fri, 17 Aug[masked]:08:17 -0400

Lol

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Matt <[address removed]> wrote:

Brock Lesnar or Triple H on Sunday guys?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:03 AM, William Carter  <[address removed]> wrote:

Both Libertarians and Objectivists share similar principles.  This is unlikely to produce conflicts.    
 
However there are also differences between Objectivists and Libertarians.  It is the differences that prodce if not "conflict" then at least "debate".  
 
I know that all Objectivists are "lassiez faire"  capitialists.  
 
I do not think that all Libertarians as "lassiez faire" capitialist.  
 
Objectivism and Libertarism are two different concepts.   
 
What are the differences between all Libertarians  and all Objectivists?
 
One of the differences I think between all Libertarians and all Objectivists is over the question of relgion-god. 
 
It is my understanding that  all Objectivists are Atheists and are not "religious".   They are not "supernatural dualists. That all Objectivists are NOT "religous".  
 
Is my understanding correct?  
 
It is also my understanding that some Libertarians are Atheists and some are not,  some are religious and some are not religous.  
 
You can be a dualists and be a Libertarian.   
 
Is my understanding correct? 
 
 
 
 
 
  


 
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David <[address removed]> wrote:



As the organizer for a libertarian group, I agree with this.  Small L libertarians differ on many things because the consciousness of the group, or movement, if you prefer, is specific to politics.   To be sure, in the spirit of coalition building there are some basic things we have to agree on to be in order to be a movement.  But the consistency endemic to a philosophical movement such as objectivism is more than we can expect of libertarians.   The presumption is that libertarians have at least in common that they think in terms of the individual with concomitant rights and freedom.  And they do not reduce politics to a voting both converted into a pavlovian chicken feeder wherein one man votes himself the privilege of living at the expense of another via threats and coercion.

So to your point, Objectivism informs libertarianism, not the other way around.  Hence the ubiquitous adoption of the force or fraud principle which Rand originated.

David Wallace
Radical for freedom



On Aug 16, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Michael Olsen wrote:

I might begin by noting that the very notion of a conflict “between libertarians and Objectivists” is flawed, as it seems to me that all Objectivists are necessarily libertarians, though not all libertarians are Objectivists. That is, anyone who believes in individual rights, free enterprise, and strictly limited government—and I assume that includes all Objectivists—is a libertarian. An Objectivist libertarian might well not belong to any particular party and might part company with some other libertarians on a wide range of philosophical and other issues, but at the level of political philosophy Objectivists are libertarians.

And that gets us the crux of our disagreement. Should all libertarians be Objectivists? Or, put another way, must libertarianism rest on the Objectivist philosophical system? I believe that libertarianism, as a political movement and a political philosophy, is a sort of coalition. Libertarianism is compatible with a wide variety of philosophical, ethical, and religious beliefs. It is clearly compatible with Objectivism. It is also compatible with most religious faiths, as many libertarian Jews, Catholics, evangelical Protestants, and Muslims can attest. And certainly there are libertarians who feel a primary moral commitment to the value of individual freedom itself.

None of this is to argue that there isn’t a best defense of capitalism and individual rights, or that one philosophical defense of individual rights isn’t ultimately true, or that Objectivism is not that truth. The argument here is simply that people of different moral values can agree on libertarianism as a political philosophy so long as they don’t want to impose their religious or moral values on others by force. I have argued that libertarianism should be a “second-best” political philosophy even for people who would like to impose their own moral philosophy on others. One could very well reason, “I would like to make religious fundamentalism [or secular humanism, or worker solidarity, or anti-clericalism] the law of the land, but I may not have the political power to do that. If so, I would rather live in a libertarian society than in a world where my cultural or moral adversaries can impose their values on me.”

--David Boaz

I share this article because I think it clarifies many of the conflations made by so-called (or wannabe) objectivists between their personal interpretation of Rand's writings--as if dogma--and the objectives of proclaimed Libertarians. I add that any similarities in mines or any other true individualists doctrines are the mere effect of a subjective view in pursuit of objectivity in an absolute universe--which I assume and pray we can all agree upon at least this much.

You can read the rest of the article on the official libertarian party website here: http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/objectivists-libertarians






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