addressalign-toparrow-leftarrow-rightbackbellblockcalendarcameraccwcheckchevron-downchevron-leftchevron-rightchevron-small-downchevron-small-leftchevron-small-rightchevron-small-upchevron-upcircle-with-checkcircle-with-crosscircle-with-pluscrossdots-three-verticaleditemptyheartexporteye-with-lineeyefacebookfolderfullheartglobegmailgooglegroupsimageimagesinstagramlinklocation-pinm-swarmSearchmailmessagesminusmoremuplabelShape 3 + Rectangle 1outlookpersonJoin Group on CardStartprice-ribbonImported LayersImported LayersImported Layersshieldstartickettrashtriangle-downtriangle-uptwitteruseryahoo

Re: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:

From: David M
Sent on: Saturday, February 2, 2013 11:58 AM
I'm curious...

Are libertarians against social justice? I know they are opposed to the government doing the social justice. But if individuals act to increase social justice, how does that contradict libertarianism. Don't they espouse individual choice and charities as the proper way to try to solve social injustice? I suppose some might just lack empathy, which might lead them to oppose all such measures, but no one would be taxed. Social justice is also broad. Would a libertarian be opposed to a group supporting a shelter for women fleeing from abusive relationships? 

Environmental protection is an area where many libertarians have come around now that it is clear that AGW is a reality. Climate change has also recently become closely tied with evolution due to bills in multiple states that attempt to undermine the teaching of both. This is why the NCSE has expanded their efforts to include not just evolution, but also climate change teaching in schools. Rejecting climate change will marginalize atheists in the atheist community because it is typically an example of indulging in ideology at the expense of empirical data, science and the future of humans.

I agree that economic reform is not a good place to go in such groups since liberals and libertarians will have drastically different ideas for the direction that the reform should go.

When talking about these issues in the context of atheism replacing religion, it is easy to forget that a lot of religious groups have no interest in social justice. Many just Bible thump. Some even just focus on trying to take all your money to use on nonsense like larger chapels or a larger mansion for the minister. Considering the variety within the Christian movement, why would we expect shared goals among the atheist movement? On the other hand, If the group is named "Boston Atheists", such a broad and general name, I tend to feel that the group should try to be a big umbrella, letting people express their atheism as they will as individuals. All types should be welcome, and all types should be able to initiate activities that may or may not have broad appeal. This means some should be able to do their social justice activities, and others should be able to do their sit around and talk-about-how-lazy-the-poor-are activities (sorry, but I am not fond of libertarianism and the thought process behind it once it extends past objections to taxes -- perhaps if my mirror neurons get damaged this would change).

Dave

On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:51 PM, Michael Ratner <[address removed]> wrote:


Mike,

It is my impression that there is already a very high degree of mutual agreement between organized atheists and "progressives" who support advances in religious and personal freedom, social justice, political and economic reform, and environmental protection.  I see a danger in atheistic organizations becoming too linked to these other issues, in that these organizations already have a poor record of enlisting atheists with a libertarian outlook.  While I am not libertarian myself, I have enjoyed being part of a predominantly libertarian discussion group in Cambridge, in which participants have helped each other understand a wider range of views.  I have no objection to progressive atheists being open about their own causes, and even recruiting for them, I think that both atheist and progressive causes are better served by having each organization avoid taking stands on issues outside of its stated purpose.  Such restraint helps to maintain a wide range of big tents under which we can grow our organizations and mobilize our supporters.

--Michael R.


On Thursday, January 24, 2013, Mike Hanauer wrote:
Thanks Ann,

So many organizations, including churches, give money or food to the poor but do little or nothing to relieve or eliminate poverty. Perhaps our biggest challenge today (in caring for the future) is environmental degradation. Again, so many churches will rally for insulation or solar panels or LEDs, but do little or nothing to get our society to embrace the basics of TRUE sustainability.

I'm hoping the Humanist movement WILL do so.

I have come to believe that one of the main problems that progressives have is that they don't stick up for each others causes. Rivers organizations don't worry about air pollution or the importance of science. Global warming groups ignore the other major and destructive problems not related to climate change -- and achieving true sustainability. And yes, humanists organizations often only see separation of church and state as important to helping the human condition.

There are a few overarching issues -- issues that make all the other issues, at least to some extent, symptoms. Eternal growth is one of those. Special interests influence is another. Separation of Church and State is perhaps a third. Lack of knowledge of systems engineering may be a fourth. We, and those other groups, have an opportunity to stick together, to become allies, and only then to make a difference -- especially about those overarching issues that inhibit all of us from achieving our common dreams.

If we progressives would just give each other even public lip service to those overarching issues, I believe we could turn our major problems around through our unity and resultant numbers. If we continue to ignore each others issues, we all lose the power of unity and go down together.

If we can't support each other for the good of humanity, we have - I believe - lost the war for the future of humanity -- god or no god.
 
    ~Mike


From: Ann <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23,[masked]:19 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:

Hi mike,

Funny that you commented about churches making people feel good rather than do good.   I know that many churches offer food pantries and help their communities.  But let's consider an average dude going to a Sunday mass and throwing a ten into the collection plate.  He can tell himself he has made a contribution to the good of the world.  Then as he leaves he'll cuss out the guy who parked too close to him in the church parking lot.

I'm too lazy to do the research, but much of that ten dollar bill  is likely going to missions in Latin America where priests are frightening natives into becoming sheep, or going to fund a legal defense for former priests accused of sex offenses, or adding another layer of gold to the roof of the Vatican.

I adored spending Thanksgiving at Harvard with our Atheist group packaging protein packed, inexpensive meals for the undernourished in Boston.

Who is acting more Christ- like??

Score one for reason, 

Annie




On Jan 22, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Mike Hanauer <[address removed]> wrote:

I agree.

When saying I'm an atheist, people have said they feel sorry for me and have said that as I get older I will become a believer. Getting older has just affirmed by belief that happiness need have nothing do to with religion. I get satisfaction out of the liberation and the activism that I participate in on population and economic growth issues (both are killing our environment). Really, religion, who needs it. Nobody IMHO. It is a crutch that pushes people to feel good rather than do good. It can provide happiness, but it is so artificial and empty.

But, this is a tough sell to those who have been indoctrinated since like age 2.
 
    ~Mike


From: barbara guillette <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22,[masked]:27 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:

I am surprised, I never had a "big hole " left when I decided I was an atheist, only a sense of great freedom. A sense that a burden had been taken off my shoulders.

I know we are a ritualistic animal and maybe that is what you miss the rituals.. I  never missed religion at all... I have one bad habit I would like to changeand that  is using words meant for religous doctrine.  I have to change that, I even feel uncomfortabe using the word faith. Or genesis, evil, that is still difficult for me. Most of what is considered to be  evil to our religious friends is our primitive selves coming to the front, only most do not recognize that, what they do is primative man at his best or worst. Deciding what your perspective is. 

--- On Tue, 1/22/13, Jim Osborn <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Jim Osborn <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 5:55 PM

They "need" it because often it is all they've ever known. Having left my belief in god when I was in my 40's I can tell you that it leaves a big hole which I have been working to fill and live with since then. Jim
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: barbara guillette <[address removed]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan[masked]:58:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:

There is a  book, called Escape From Freedom" by Eric From and it explains this concept very well, some people, especially strong in the evangelical world and the Muslim and Jewish World cannot deal with the concept of Freedom, true human freedom, the laws and rules of the church or Mosque or Synagogue makes them feel secure, that is why the book is called "Escape from Freedom". They can't handle freedom, they do not know what to do with it and the more rules and laws makes them fear death less and the more rules and laws intensifies their security within those beliefs.. Its really a secure, insecure problem and a paranoid fear of death, and the unknown.. That is my idea of the religous ideaology and why they need it.
barbara

--- On Tue, 1/22/13, Zachary Bos <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Zachary Bos <[address removed]>
Subject: [bostonatheists] On the curriculum at Cedarville University in Ohio:
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 3:43 PM

We believe in the literal 6-day account of creation, that the creation
of man lies in the special, immediate, and formative acts of God and
not from previously existing forms of life...

We believe in the imminent "Blessed Hope," the Rapture of the church
before the tribulation, when the "Lord shall descend from heaven" to
catch up His bride to meet Him in the air and "so shall we ever be
with the Lord."...

We believe in the literal, bodily resurrection of the crucified Lord,
His ascension into heaven, His present life there as our High Priest
and Advocate, and His personal, bodily, visible return to the earth at
the end of the tribulation to establish His millennial kingdom on
earth, and to reign as the only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord
of Lords.

_ _

And so on, ad nauseum. From
https://www.cedarville.edu/Job-Openings/Doctrinal-Statement.aspx, via
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/22/several-controversies-converge-ohio-baptist-college
and
http://gawker.com/5977948/the-ludicrous-mythology-that-christian-colleges-teach-as-fact.



--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://www.meetup.com/bostonatheists/
This message was sent by Zachary Bos ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Zachary Bos, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/bostonatheists/members/83909/
Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
http://www.meetup.com/bostonatheists/list_prefs/?pref=1

In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/bostonatheists/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
http://www.meetup.com/bostonatheists/list_prefs/?pref=0
Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by barbara guillette ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about barbara guillette, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Jim Osborn ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Jim Osborn, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by barbara guillette ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about barbara guillette, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Mike Hanauer ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Mike Hanauer, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Ann ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Ann, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Mike Hanauer ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Mike Hanauer, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]


--
--Michael





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Michael Ratner ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Michael Ratner, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

Our Sponsors

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy