Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."

From: kenneth a. t.
Sent on: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:44 PM
I don't believe it's a " red herring", at all. As I believe these questions lead in a veriety of investigative directions, which is a good thing.
Be well, and best regards, Ken.

From: David M <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, August 21,[masked]:51 AM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."

Trying to determine causality by popular opinion is a very unreliable epistemology. The world is complex and intuitions tend to feed into what we want to believe.

Why have no black males ever won a Nobel in physics? In 1901 when the nobel price in physics started, black males were given access to top level physics jobs. In more recent years where formal barriers are gone, there still aren't a large number of black males in top level physics. You have to be doing physics to win the award.

There are serious issues worth discussion in the US related to lack of opportunities for many populations, but asking about nobel prizes this way is a red herring.

On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:07 PM, "kenneth a. thomas" <[address removed]> wrote:

Hello David how are you?
Do yourself an epistemological favor, and start asking humans to name the Black males they know of that have won Nobel prizes in physics and chemistry. And find out what kinds of replies you get. Then ask, why it is, in their estimate, that no black males have ever won a Nobel in physics, or chemistry. And find out what replies you get. That way you won't have to rely on any one elses data. You will have compiled your own. Then compare your data and the conclusions you reach from it, to the conclusions reached by the sociologist, I sighted, to find for your self if their work was, and is reputable.
The suggestions that I made above may be far too crude for you, and you may have much better sociological methods. However use your own, and share them with others, for peer review. And compare them to those I sight.
Epistemological hygiene is a good thing.
Be well, and best regards, Ken.

From: David M <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, August 20,[masked]:38 AM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."

Ken,

Great point about the bait-and-switch. While the conclusion may still stand, it is a warning sign that the author has an idea they want to champion and searches for citations to justify it. This is the danger of motivated reasoning.

I remember a question placed to Neil Degrasse Tyson in a conference I attended. He was asked about possible intrinsic differences among individual humans in their aptness for certain fields. The gist of his answer was that the social barriers are such that we are far from hitting any kind of ceiling based on genetics. His example was himself. When he was young, he loved science, but claims he was encouraged by others to pursue sports instead.

There are many problems like this that blanks and women in America face. But it takes out of control imagination to start connecting this to family planning.

My feeling is that the subject of this thread is completely wrong, not because of the racial conspiracy idea, but because there are rational basis for all sorts of ideas that seem ridiculous. When people do not see the rational basis, it is typically due to a lack of imagination. Groups that oppose family planning can get real demographic advantages and there is power in numbers. If a couple has 10 kids, they just increased the voting power of their family across generations 500%. That is a rational act. I don't remember the original post and its arguments, but the subject line seems problematic.

Discounting the future is also a rational act, and my understanding is that most economists would say that discounting the future is far more rational than not discounting the future. This means that future gains must be pretty compelling to make it a rational choice to forego present gains.

Atheists should have an advantage in appreciating the diversity of reasoning people can have since this is typically a major reason why we don't take anyone's god claims seriously. Granted, the god-reasoning is usually (an I am being very generous to them by qualifying this) quite poor reasoning, but I would hope that we as atheists would appreciate the difficulties of absolutism.

On Aug 19, 2013, at 10:02 AM, Eric Newbury <[address removed]> wrote:

Ken,
 
I feel like their might be a bias in an author when they state that “Black Men” (K….) are much less likely to graduate college than Hispanic men, white men and Black women, to which they proceed to aggregate this point into ‘their white counterparts’ are doing better. I didn’t know that black women now count as ‘white men’.

I’m not jesting for no reason, keep in mind, I just think that statistics, like a bible (allow me to connect this to atheism), can be interpreted to mean many self-serving ideas.

Is it possible that Bill Cosby has a certain point when he says that racism exists, absolutely, but that certain cultural ideologies inside the black community don’t exactly help their situation. Which, btw, is an ideology that spans past just ‘black men’ and is better probably thought of geographically and socio-economically. This, though, you’d have to look at from the perspective of prejudice against the proletariat and not so much as strictly ‘black men’.
 
Regards,
Eric
 
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of kenneth a. thomas
Sent: Monday, August 19,[masked]:42 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
Barry, I'm shining a light on this problem, and am looking for support.
Relevant link below.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Best regards, Ken.
 
 
 
 
 
From: Barry <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Saturday, August 17,[masked]:52 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
Ken,

Here's an example of people who are lighting candles by nurturing and mentoring:  College Summit, http://www.collegesummit.org/.  Though it's not specifically geared towards black students, I imagine that many of the students it helps are black.  This sounds like an organization that's well worth supporting.  (By the way, its founder, JB Schramm, was quite religious when I knew him as a college student, and I assume he still is today.  That may be food for thought for some people ;-)  )

Best wishes,
Barry

On 8/17/2013 1:37 PM, Barry wrote:
Ken, I didn't mean to say that black people don't face problems.  I just believe that, to quote a famous phrase, it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness.  While sometimes you can call out people doing something wrong, get them to change their behavior, and maybe even get them to make amends, much of the time it's better to focus on what you can do to deal with a problem, regardless of who caused it in the first place.  I thank Catherine for bringing some important and disturbing information to the discussion on the challenges that black people face in this country.  I'm not disputing the information, although I'm not anywhere near as familiar with it as she is.  I'm just saying that that information doesn't do much good if it's not followed up by practical steps to address it.  And the more that the people concerned about or affected by a problem can do about it, the better.  If you wait for the powers that be in this country to solve the problems facing black people, you might be waiting a long time.

Best wishes,
Barry

On 8/17/2013 1:07 PM, kenneth a. thomas wrote:
Barry, a couple of years ago, Ebony magazine ran an article on black males and their their educational experiences in the USA. Stating that 50% of black males were considering droping out of school by the 4th grade. How reliable was that information???  It is more than obvious, from other more reliable measures that black males in the USA are not getting the nurturing most others are. For physics, and most other areas of study.
Best regards, Ken
 
From: Barry mailto:[address removed]
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, August 16,[masked]:54 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
Ken,

Although I have my opinions, I'm not the best person to go into detail on how to nurture talent in physics.  However, I gather that with any talent, the earlier it's encouraged, the better.  Not that babies are going to do relativity, but children at any age can start to explore their world and, as they get older, get interested and involved in math and science.  If there's talent to be nurtured, these things can only help.

Best wishes,
Barry

On 8/16/2013 4:39 PM, kenneth a. thomas wrote:
Thank you for your opinion Barry.
In your opinion how does talent in physics develop? How is it nurtured? Are people just born with it, and thrive in that subject? Are there community contributions, to those that show talent in that area? as in is there mentoring?
Barry, please write more about any of those extremely talanted few, from any race, or sex and show how those talanted individuals, talent is uncorrelated to their communities, and the support coming from those communities.
Best regards, Ken.
 
From: Barry mailto:[address removed]
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, August 15,[masked]:15 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
Ken,

While I agree that racism is a huge problem, I think you're engaging in confirmation bias.  Nobel Prizes are so difficult to get that they're hardly a good measure of whether any particular segment of the population is facing barriers.  Even among extremely talented people, of any race, exceedingly few receive Nobel Prizes.  Rather than diagnosing racism in that case, I think it's far more productive to focus on nurturing talent and interest among black people - as well as among any underrepresented group - and on providing opportunities for education and advancement.  I'm not saying that there aren't talented black physicists and chemists now, but if you want to see more of them, I think focusing on racism is only going to do so much to make that happen.

In general, I question the productiveness of focusing on racism, rather on the flip side, which is tolerance and acceptance.  I'm not saying that people should ignore racism, I'm just saying that it's more productive to focus on how to get people from where they are now, both the racists and the unempowered blacks, to where you want them to be, namely less racist and more empowered.  I'm also not singling out racism as a form of oppression to ignore.  I'm just mentioning my strategy for dealing with the issues I've been involved with, such as activism for gay people and people with mental illness.  I hope that this is where you're putting most of your effort..You may still need time to deal with your apparent and understandable anger about racism, but you'll do more good by actually supporting a black people's advancement and building bridges between black and white people than by pointing out that racism exists.

Best wishes,
Barry

On 8/15/2013 5:13 PM, kenneth a. thomas wrote:
Paul
I'm a Black African American, born in Trenton N.J., the second of 5 males, and one female. To a father who was a master sergeant in the US army, a WWII vet., and a senior corrections officer. My mother was a psychiatric nurse.
I'm 58 now. and years ago I started asking why are their no Black males who have won Nobel prizes in physics, and chemistry. Especially since some people believe their is little racism in the USA. And since there is a Black man who is the president of the USA. I sometimes am tempted to use the success of Black African American males in physics as a measure of the absence, or presence of racism in the USA. Notice the word "a", measure,not the measure, or the only measure of black males status in the USA. According to the book, " The Second Nuclear Age: Strategy, Danger, and the New Power Politics", by Paul Bracken, copyright 2012. When Blacks in South Africa were fighting racist Whites there. Israel was collaborating with the Racist Whites in South Africa to get them the atom bomb. The French had collaborated with Israel, to help them get the atom bomb. And the US remained quiet about that. Today the US is still quiet about Israel having nuclear weapons. Who dismisses this use of science for racist power? For Black males in the US attempting to go to school and study physics, and have a career in physics. It may easily occur to them that their exists an international tendency toward racism in physics, and other areas of science. That evidence can seem overwhelmingly clear, however, few people speak about it, making it seem conspiratorial.
So that you get a better idea of what I'm hinting at. I recommend the book " Acting White?: Rethinking Race in Post-Racial America, by Devon W. Carbado, Mitu Gulati. I believe that you can find it at your local library. Both of the authors are law professors, not physicists, or chemists. However I suspect similar experiences, across those academic lines. To add to that I'll refer you to the work of Dr. Lloyd Sheldon Johnson, " Spirituality as a Viable Resource in Responding to Racial Micro-aggressions. Link below
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nWkPw1SGRkALQVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaDVqaTR0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NNRTE5Nl8x/SIG=13jpl5ubu/EXP=1376628772/**http%3a/scholarworks.umb.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3farticle=1069%26context=doctoral_dissertations
I'm an atheist, however realize that the micro-aggressions, micro-insults, micro-invalidations, and micro-assults, are real phenomena, used to dis-empower Black males, in the classrooms of the USA. With dire outcomes for those Black males.
To be continued.
Best regards Ken.
From: Paul G. Brown mailto:[address removed]
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, August 15,[masked]:50 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
 
 Kenneth - 
 
  To be honest, I'm pretty ignorant of the everyday lives of black men in the US, so I would take mild issue with your reading into my words the notion that "magical thinking" is somehow a characteristic of that community. I just can't say that: you're in a better position to judge. Seems to me it's more associated with religion than race. Most of the (so-white-and-privileged-its-ridiculous) Republican Party is as much enthralled to it as the weirdest of California's "New Age Seekers" or the most poverty bound immigrant farm worker. 
 
   What effect does empowering women have on men? None at all, so far as I can tell. Liberty isn't a zero sum game. Increasing one person's freedom by giving them more options doesn't diminish anyone else's. (An idea I got from Orlando Patterson's _Freedom_in_the_Making_of_Western_Culture_). Unless, of course, you hold to the idea that one person's freedoms extend to the control of another's … an idea I think we all find repugnant. 
 
   I didn't know of Dr. Frances Wellsing - but having made her brief acquaintance via Wikipedia I have to say … her ideas are very, very …. provincial. Visit almost any country in the world outside Europe and the US, and you're very quickly struck by how limiting it is to view the world through a frame defined by the last 200 years of US history. Visit China, or India, or Indonesia, or Africa … finding yourself suddenly the sole representative of "your race" is very humbling.
 
  Working with colleagues from Brazil gave me another, slightly uncomfortable moment, but one with a rather wonderful lesson. A Brazilian sales rep. was describing her husband to me (I was to pick him up at the airport). Without a pause or a second thought, she told me he was of average height, and his skin was lighter than "his" (she pointed to her boss) but darker than "hers" (she pointed to an indian colleague of mine). Skin color, for her, was merely a physical feature like one's hair (or lack of it) or eyes. 
 
  Places like the Caribbean and Brazil were wracked by historical slavery. They're not utopias. But it seems to me that they're closer to it, in terms of race relations, than the US. Which leads me to suspect that historical racism in the US has a lot to do with conflict within the white power structure (would value your insight on this). In the US, for years, poor whites were encouraged to respond to their powerlessness by inflicting violence on neighbors who, in every other way, should have been their allies. Poverty and racism are connected in many subtle and complex ways. Why are so many young black men in jail? I suspect the answer is connected to how this cements tribal bonds among low-information white voters. The good news? Demographics being what they are, it's a demagoguery that's not going to work much longer. 
 
   I'm also a little concerned with the rationality of some of Dr Wellsing's claims about genes and survival. If there was an underlying biological imperative, we would see very little if any merging of the gene pools of different racial groups anywhere. Yet we do. That's what modern genetics shows. I have *no* idea how my steppes ancestry got there, but there it is! I can recommend getting the family history in your genes read to anyone.
 
 I'd also recommend letting your heart and hopes be warmed by watching the mixing and matching that goes on on any college campus. My father once quipped that in his opinion, Tina Turner's legs, and Diana Ross's breasts, had done as much to reduce racial prejudice as anything else in his life time. Poor white boys must find it very confusing when they're told they should hate on Beyonce. Or Selena Gomez. ;) All the more reason for carefully weighing questions of population, and self control. 
 
   And one final thing … please carefully re-read what I wrote about China, US eugenics and so on. I was trying very hard *not* to erect a hierarchy of suffering. It seems to me that there's plenty to go around. And disappointingly, religion is often used as a justification for it. 
 
   Paul
 
 
On Aug 15, 2013, at 7:29 AM, kenneth a. thomas <[address removed]> wrote:


Hello Paul how are you?
I agree that there is a considerable amount of very determined and persistent magical thinking, that contributes to problems of scarcity, educational thoroughness, and scientific skill. And to a large extent that magical thinking exists among black peoples. However, I believe that an amount of that magical thinking may correlate closely to the trauma of being victimized by severe and persistent racist violence.
Paul what affect/effect does empowering women have on men? Especially when the men are Black American males that have been severely traumatized by an racist experience in the USA. And considered to be the major threat to White supremacist dominance. And the women are being empowered for the purpose of dis-empowering a large percentage of those Black males.
Paul do you know of Frances Cress Wellsing, the psychiatrist who wrote " The ISIS Papers".
It is my observation that many of the women that you may be referring to as having been empowered. Have been empowered to promote White supremacist racist views aimed primarily at dis-empowered Black males. And that much of that dis-empowering of Black males is being done by the Black mothers of those males, in a very complex power struggle.
And I agree that human brains may not prevent humans from becoming extinct. However, it seems wise to use those human brains, and other functional portions of the human body, to make the best use of the scientific methods available to us, to nurture our thriving.
It's interesting to me that you make the Chinese one child policy more coercive, murderous, and terrifying than racist America's eugenics cleansing. However, I'm glad that you bring that up for consideration, and comparison.
I believe that if you examine the evidence, locally, and globally, you will find overwhelming counterfactuals, to compel the opposite belief. In the USA the numbers of Black males incarcerated, unemployed, underemployed, adverse to the things being taught in the schools, and thus their supposed lack of education. Compared to observations of Chinese peoples in those categories, suggest other than you suggest.  And similar evidence is suggested when comparing the Chinese in China, to Blacks in Africa. Especially when considering the exploitation of African resources by the Chinese. Like the way the Chinese exploit the fish near African coasts, and there are other, similar examples.
To be continued.
Best regards, Ken.
 
From: Paul G. Brown <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14,[masked]:52 PM
Subject: Re: [bostonatheists] "No real rational basis to opposing benefits of family planning..."
 
 
 Kenneth - 
 
 
On Aug 14, 2013, at 1:54 PM, "kenneth a. thomas" <[address removed]> wrote:
I'm of the opinion that over consumption, and racism are the primary problems. And both are very prominent features of the USA.
With regards to the opening quote about, the fewer the people the simpler the problem. For those who believe that, eliminating themselves, seems the their first, and primary option. And any other option would tend to be coercive, violent and murderous.
 
  I agree with you whole-heartedly about that over-consumption and racism are prominent features of the US today. 
 
  But about your second point … I am not so sure. 
 
  Your position seems to be that the problem of scarcity is largely a question of distribution. The 21st Century US is an incredible time and place in which to live. We have the means currently to meet everyone's needs. Yet instead we have collectively chosen a way of life that leads to the persistence of poverty and yields evidence of lack and need everywhere we look. 
 
  I absolutely agree with you that one of the causes of this unequal distribution of economic riches is structural racism, to which I would add a salting of "magical thinking" on the part of many Americans. Religion inclines believers to fatalism. There's no reason to believe an individual's will or desires matter much when everything is, after all, merely the plan of some pan-galactic-bearded-(white)-dude-in-the-sky. And I also agree that there are places where we all might improve our lives by consuming less. Even … *cue the woo sound-track* … thinking about something other than the material things by which so many of us define our lives. 
 
   BUT … I detect a whiff of "false dichotomy" in the places you choose to go after that. I think over-population is a major contributor to long current poverty, because caring for and educating kids is an enormous social and economic burden, and societies with exploding youth populations can't allocate the necessary resources. Fewer kids in a society means that the society as a whole can invest more in each of them.
 
   I'd also take issue with your characterization of effective population control strategies as tending to be "coercive, violent and murderous". To the contrary, recent history suggest that the most effective route to population control is … empowering women. Simply give them information, access to birth control, and a justice system that lets them escape 'coercive, violent and murderous' situations … 
 
   I don't see an either/or here. We can *both* address social and economic injustice *and* pursue non-coercive approaches to population control. 
 
    But that's all mechanics. So far, I've been silent on the question of why population control is a good, even necessary thing. And my justification here is, as best I can tell you, founded in the notion that we are just another species of mammal. Nothing special, biologically. Our evolutionary "trick" has been to invest vast amounts of energy into a "sense-making" organ. Crabs got claws, beetles and turtles got armor, bacteria got incredibly fast mitosis. Ya do what ya' gotta do t' make a living. 
 
  I don't see why having brains will prevent us from going the same way as 99% of all species who have ever existed. Or even if we don't disappear, it's a long way down from 7 billion to 1 billion. If you ever want to see something even more terrifying than the awful coercion of China's "one child" policy, more violent than the treatment of the "feeble minded" and otherwise "defective" and "sub-human" by eugenicists in the C20th, or more murderous than white America's "cleansing" of the land, go look ,some-time, at what nature does to a species that has exceeded the limits of its carrying capacity. 
 
   Paul 
 
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Paul G. Brown ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Paul G. Brown, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Paul G. Brown ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Paul G. Brown, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Barry ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Barry, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Barry ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Barry, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Barry ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Barry, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Barry ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Barry, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
 




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Eric Newbury ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Eric Newbury, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David M ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about David M, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by kenneth a. thomas ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about kenneth a. thomas, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David M ([address removed]) from The Boston Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about David M, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]


Membership dues

$1.00 a year

This covers: Hosting of the website and Meetup; signage and refreshments for public events.

Payment is accepted using:

  • Cash or check - “Cash or check can be delivered to me at meetings, or by post to the address listed on the bostonatheists.org website.

Your organizer will refund you if:

  • Please contact your organizer for more details.

Our Sponsors

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy