CFI Portland Meetup Group Message Board Announcements › Should we Humanists (nationwide) start marching in support of Catholic Nuns

Should we Humanists (nationwide) start marching in support of Catholic Nuns in their struggle against the Pope and the Vatican?

Gavin
Atheistic-ExJW
Beaverton, OR
Post #: 2,042
Should we Humanists (nationwide) start marching in support of Catholic Nuns in their struggle against the Pope and the Vatican? See the news articles called "Protesters back U.S. nuns in standoff with Vatican" and see "Why the Pope Hates Nuns".
SylviaB
SylviaB
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 158
None of our business.

It would be like a local affiliate of the Foundation Beyond Belief, FFRF, AHA or AHA, or the Sierra Club or Experimental Aircraft Association, for that matter, wanting to raise money for religious proselytizing, the parent organization telling them that this is not their core mission and to cut it out, and believers then demonstrating in the streets against that.

Unlike opposition to contraception, child abuse, or taking voucher money, this issue is internal to the church.

Sylvia
Gavin
Atheistic-ExJW
Beaverton, OR
Post #: 2,044
None of our business.

It would be like a local affiliate of the Foundation Beyond Belief, FFRF, AHA or AHA, or the Sierra Club or Experimental Aircraft Association, for that matter, wanting to raise money for religious proselytizing, the parent organization telling them that this is not their core mission and to cut it out, and believers then demonstrating in the streets against that.

Unlike opposition to contraception, child abuse, or taking voucher money, this issue is internal to the church.

Sylvia

Did you read the articles? They mention the Vatican started causing problems to the organization of the American nuns because the nuns are taking some Humanist positions, such as the following: recognizing that because women are persons they thus should not be sexually discriminated against from becoming priests, that contraceptives should not be barred to Catholic women, etc. Does not Humanism in its various forms promote sexual equality and contraceptive rights? In the civil rights movement whites and Jews joined blacks in protesting for blacks obtaining equal rights. Men protested with women for women to obtain the right to right to vote and other rights. Non-gays joined gays in protesting for gay rights. The increased human rights of blacks, women, and gays was largely the result of individuals with some Humanist views joining them in protests for more human rights.

Don't many Humanists and other atheists criticize the Catholic church for barring women from becoming priests and for trying to bar women for using contraceptives and for the church trying to get laws passed which hinder access to contraceptives? Don't many of the atheist organizations say they are for freedom of religion (and freedom of non-religion). So why not show that we mean those things by showing that we stand up with the nuns in their efforts to obtain such rights for women? This is not about standing up for religious proselytizing; this is about standing up for group's effort to obtain more human rights, rights that Humanism (including CFI) says it values.

Further I did not ask if Humanist organizations (such as CFI) should get involved in the protests; I asked if Humanists should get involved in the protests. I was talking about Humanists as individuals, not as organizations. Just because I posted the question in a forum of an organization, does not mean I am asking if the organization should get involved. I was asking if individual Humanists should get involved.

I think that Paul Kurtz said that Secular Humanists should work with religious people and religious organizations in regards to obtaining more of the goals of Humanism. Such an idea might be a good one.
SylviaB
SylviaB
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 159
I don't see how the argument changes with the assumption that we are talking about private actors. Private actors can and should do what they feel is right, but it doesn't make this particular proposal any less presumptuous. I'm also not sure what it has to do with humanism.

Freedom of conscience is a core humanist commitment, including the freedom to promote ideas and policies that are opposed to our own. That is meaningless unless it also includes a commitment to the freedom to enforce policies accordingly inside the organizations that were specifically founded and are specifically managed (and funded) to promote ideas other than our own. It makes no sense to tell the Catholic church that they should act like a humanistic organization anymore than it would make sense for private Catholic actors to tell us that we should act like a Catholic organization.

Telling the Catholic church how to run its affairs is quite another thing than speaking out against Catholic ideas.

Have the last word. I'm too busy for online conversations right now, I just needed to clarify this point.
Gavin
Atheistic-ExJW
Beaverton, OR
Post #: 2,046
I don't see how the argument changes with the assumption that we are talking about private actors. Private actors can and should do what they feel is right, but it doesn't make this particular proposal any less presumptuous. I'm also not sure what it has to do with humanism.

Freedom of conscience is a core humanist commitment, including the freedom to promote ideas and policies that are opposed to our own. That is meaningless unless it also includes a commitment to the freedom to enforce policies accordingly inside the organizations that were specifically founded and are specifically managed (and funded) to promote ideas other than our own. It makes no sense to tell the Catholic church that they should act like a humanistic organization anymore than it would make sense for private Catholic actors to tell us that we should act like a Catholic organization.

Telling the Catholic church how to run its affairs is quite another thing than speaking out against Catholic ideas.

Have the last word. I'm too busy for online conversations right now, I just needed to clarify this point.

Those are good points and they illustrate why I was uncertain if Humanists should get involved. But I still don't know if we should avoid getting involved, thus I have questions for you in relation to your points. Was it wrong or inappropriate for people during the civil rights era who were not owners, employees, or customers of specific businesses to protest the racially discriminatory policies of those specific businesses? Was it wrong or inappropriate for people in northern states to be protesting the racially discriminatory actions of what took place in the southern states? Was it none of their business to get involved by traveling from New York state to Alabama state in order to join in protests of the segregation laws of the state of Alabama? Did it make no sense for those New Yorkers and other northerners to tell the state government of Alabama what they should do regarding their racist laws? Was it wrong for the USA federal government to intervene militarily in the internal conflict in Libya? Is it wrong that the USA federal government is intervening (through the UN and by public denunciations) in the internal conflict in Syria? Was it wrong for the USA to fight against the Germans (mainly to free Europe from the Nazis, including freeing Jews) since it was Japan, not Germany, which attacked Pearl Harbor (though Japan did have a war treaty with Germany)? Is it wrong for Humanists to get involved (such as through legislation) to try to force non-Humanist parents to vaccinate their children of their private households and to provide them with medical care when they are gravely ill?
SylviaB
SylviaB
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 160
As I said "nlike opposition to contraception, child abuse, or taking voucher money".

You don't see the difference between that (or the things you mention) and the Catholic church saying "no" to its nuns?

When you do, you'll immediately see why the stuff you list would fall into the "unlike" category.
Gavin
Atheistic-ExJW
Beaverton, OR
Post #: 2,051
Sylvia As I said "(u)nlike opposition to contraception, child abuse, or taking voucher money".

You don't see the difference between that (or the things you mention) and the Catholic church saying "no" to its nuns?

When you do, you'll immediately see why the stuff you list would fall into the "unlike" category.


The Catholic church is saying no to the nun's because of the nun's support of contraception (as well as their other humanist positions). Do you see that? It was mentioned in the articles. In regards to contraception, the nuns are our allies. That is why I was asking if we should show support for the nuns actions to promote contraception in defiance of the Vatican's opposition to contraception. I was not talking about showing support to the nun's in general, only in regards to specific actions in favor of our Humanist goals, including access to contraception.
Gavin
Atheistic-ExJW
Beaverton, OR
Post #: 2,052
Sylvia As I said "(u)nlike opposition to contraception, child abuse, or taking voucher money".

You don't see the difference between that (or the things you mention) and the Catholic church saying "no" to its nuns?

When you do, you'll immediately see why the stuff you list would fall into the "unlike" category.


The Catholic church is saying no to the nun's because of the nun's support of contraception (as well as their other humanist positions). Do you see that? It was mentioned in the articles. In regards to contraception, the nuns are our allies. That is why I was asking if we should show support for the nuns actions to promote contraception in defiance of the Vatican's opposition to contraception. I was not talking about showing support to the nun's in general, only in regards to specific actions in favor of our Humanist goals, including access to contraception.

My prior post accidentally left out the word "not", but I fixed it earlier today. In thinking about matters further, the last sentence of my prior post might be a slight change in what I was talking about, in relation to what I said in my initial post of this topic. But regardless, I don't plan to make any more posts about the matter in the CFI forums.
Powered by mvnForum

Our Sponsors

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy