Re: [humanism-174] more on ID

From: Mark T.
Sent on: Friday, January 4, 2008 1:07 PM
Besides, the "moral" implications of this topic cut straight to the heart of the religious/non-religious thing.
 
 
I'll bet that there are many atheists, agnostics, etc who would disagree with me here.
On Jan 4,[masked]:19 PM, Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]> wrote:
It's cool, Cloudberry! I'm sure no one took offense- it's good discussion, that's all!
There are several other vegetarians in our group, probably more than I know of as yet.
 
By the way, Marni & I both feel the same "connection" to our fellow Earthlings, of which you referred to.

On Jan 4,[masked]:11 PM, Cloudberry <[address removed]> wrote:
Wow. Did not know my comment about being vegetarian would generate so much discussion about why NOT to be vegetarian. Please accept my apology about using the explosive word "cannibal." I do not mean to call anyone who eats beef or pork a cannibal. That would be crazy.

I am fully aware that we have canine teeth and that our biology developed for eating meat and that the forms of life that vegetarians eat are also alive or once were. It is impossible (to the best of my knowledge) to live without consuming some form of life. Life feeds on life. For life to continue, other life must die.

I choose to consume life that is lower on the development/evolutionary scale than some others do, partly because I feel a greater connection to creatures that have eyes and blood, including my dog and cat, even though in some cultures dogs and cats are raised for dinner. I think of my dog and cat as family, and would not think of eating them. I suspect a lot of pet owners feel the same.

The difference is that I've extended the "it's not OK to eat you" feeling to cows and pigs, for example, that I have not met or raised, and definitely do not include in my family.

I don't expect to change anybody's mind, and I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. This is just how I think about it.

Vegetarians usually include dairy in their diets. Vegans are the ones who don't. I'm not even fully or strictly vegetarian, which I consider a weakness. Mine, not anyone else's. I eat fish. I had some turkey over the holidays for the first time in many years. I do the best I can.

And yes, I am aware that most dog food and cat food is not vegetarian, and that some people go to specialty shops for vegetarian pet food. I'm not one of them. 

I do not intend to impose my dietary restrictions on others, any more than I'd impose my dietary restrictions on my dog or my cat, or my kids, for that matter.

And now I've got to get back to work...


Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]> wrote:
We evolved as omnivores, no doubt. Then again, so did raccoons. Did the consumption of complex proteins found in meat somehow assist in the evolution of our "advanced" brains?
 
I am still carnivorous... however, if I were brave enough to visit a slaughterhouse or a chicken factory-farm, that would probably change... nothing like a big dose of reality.
 
I couldn't give up eggs though... love those eggs! We only buy cage-free, though I'd like to see what a "cage-free" farm is truly like.

On Jan 4,[masked]:57 AM, Cliff <[address removed]> wrote:
More devils advocate for vegetarians - Why did we evolve canine teeth if not for meat?  It was suggested to me once that the proportions of teeth (canines to molars) are representative of the food balance we need to consume for a healthy diet. 


From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Josh
Sent: Friday, January 04,[masked]:35 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] more on ID

I think many uneducated people think DNA is more "perfect" than it really is.  Why would an intelligent designer create people with unnecessary and unused organs and parts like the appendix and wisdom teeth?  Really, DNA is more of a messy hodgepodge than a complex pattern.

Actually to relate to Maude's comment on viruses, I read an interesting article a few weeks ago (not this one - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050328174826.htm - but I just found this link) about how the human genome project is finding evidence of tons of retroviruses in our genetic code.  Basically, these viruses embed themselves into genes and then are passed on to offspring, so viruses are actually a large part of our genetic code!  How does Mr. Galloway explain that?

And cloudberry -

to play devils advocate, there's not really much difference between animal DNA and plant, fungus, bacteria, and even virus DNA.  So if DNA similarity is a reason not to kill or eat something, we should have just as much of a problem eating a salad, or a mushroom, or taking antibiotics to kill a bacterial infection.  The reason we eat organic life, is because it's made up of the same stuff as us, and we need more of that stuff to survive.  I personally think since we need to eat organic life to survive, we have to draw a line somewhere as to what is acceptable or not to kill and eat.  I draw the line simply at humans, because we seem to be the only form of life capable of consciousness and dreams for the future, and that is really all I can think of the makes us different from any other form of life on Earth

On Jan 4,[masked]:17 AM, Cloudberry <[address removed]> wrote:
> Lovely posts. I am enjoying this so much. Agree entirely with you, Maude.
> Btw, I find your logic yet another reason to be vegetarian. It's just an
> extension on not wanting to be a cannibal. Nothing wrong with a bloodless
> meal so long as it tastes good and actually has protein in it.  
>
>
> Maude < [address removed]> wrote:
>  
> LOL! Well, as for Keith Galloway's argument, he seems to place great
> emphasis on "HUMAN" DNA. Perhaps he is not well-read. Judging from the one
> very glaring grammatical error in his post, I assume he isn't well-read. So
> perhaps poor Keith didn't follow up very well on the results of the human
> genome project, and following up would require being somewhat well-read.
> Therefore, perhaps Keith isn't aware that there is nothing special or
> extraordinary about "human" DNA. Perhaps he needs to comprehend that this
> special "human" DNA is less than a hair's breadth in difference from the
> non-special DNA of the field mouse-a rodent. Human DNA is quite mundane and
> ordinary when considered relative to the DNA of other critters.
>  
> I don't know, I am just speculating but it would seem more believable to me
> if the proponents of ID could point to some spectacular difference between
> "human" and other DNA. Right now, we are pretty close to the average rodent.
> Actually, I am gratified by that. Rodents are quite resilient in nature. I
> would be happy if it were found that human DNA is similar to the DNA of a
> virus. We all know how adaptable viruses are! That would be great!
>  
> There is just nothing scientifically so special about humans. I happen to
> like it that way.
>
>
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