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Re: [humanism-174] Who?

From: Russell S.
Sent on: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:56 AM
Thanks Tim and Randy for explaining your thoughts more.   I never intend to hit any raw nerves too violently,  but do like honest back and forthing  sometimes,  because it’s all about getting along my path to the truth for me.    The story about the cyanide dumpers getting found out and charged by the state employees,  is good news to me too!   Inspite of my total idealism,  one of my strongest beliefs is that very very few things are pure/  hardly anything in this world is all good or all bad.   I just work hard on trying to decide what’s  better, worse,  best considering the circumstances.    Sometimes it’s easy.   Sometimes it’s kind of impossible.   Luckily,  I often figure out it doesn’t matter to me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Honestly,  some of your comments are silly.    or .....maybe they all are.     You remind me of the very first thing I paid attention to about libertarian philosophy actually.  It was on NPR,  in the middle 90s.    The line happened to be “In a libertarian government there would still be an EPA,  but ....”  (and I don’t exactly remember the rest of the line but it really made sense to me at the time)      In that same interview the comment was made that people confuse being libertarian with being LIBERTINE.   It sounds like that problem continues.    I never heard any libertarian politician that wanted to get rid of the court system or police forces.   Do you actually know any who have?     In fact,  whenever the drug war is over the police will have a huge amount of more time to spend on doing the things they should do.      And I have a sneaky suspicion  you meant to be sarcastic there Tim,  but yes,  the general idea of libertarianism is that people would get along better with each other if they wanted to.   Having a government that seeks to force us all to like each other doesn’t seem to be working so well -   seriously  ......well I gess this is one of the classic particular subjects for Democrats and libertarians to argue endlessly about so I’ll forget it to start with.   But the one thing I’d like an explanation about is why  they want us to declare what race we are on the census forms.    That has to be totally about deciding who they should discriminate against.   or is it more to make us think about which bunch of the population we are and which parts we’re not?     I decided since the 1990 time around,  to write in “HUMAN” for my race.     I don’t like helping them out with their favoritism schemes.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Back to the subject of corporations -   did anybody do any reviewing of the history of corporate law?    According to Greg Coleridge,  who I trust as an authority on the subject,  Ohioans used to be able to and sometimes did put an end to corporations they didn’t like.    The Ds and Rs worked long and hard with all of their favorite lobbyists to give us all the corporate laws (or lacks thereof) we have now.    I’m sure no libertarians were involved in the process,  except to slow it down if any managed to get elected and if they were real libertarians.    When it comes to getting scoundrels in our government,  I’m sure any number of scoundrels could call themselves libertarian,  and possibly even be Libertarian (a member of the official party).   But then if we had a libertarian government the scoundrel would have considerably less political power to cause problems as the glorious powers that the big party politicians have now.   I know I know,  if we had ham we could have ham and eggs ....if we had eggs.    Just since we’re talking about ideologies I wanted to throw that in.   Like I said before,  I only wish I knew better how to argue the case for liberty and Austrian economics.  I don’t know if I’m getting anywhere at all yet.    If you can find 15 minutes for this youtube:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxDwT55rmIw,   I’d really appreciate your comments on it.    If this guy is wrong I’d like to know why/how.   Peace,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rus     
 
Sent: Wednesday, November 07,[masked]:22 PM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Who?
 
Forgot to add the most basic flaw in your scenario. Under a libertarian small-government regime, should these property owners sue Monsanto, even if the property owners won the suit, who would enforce the verdict?   As true libertarians, there might not even be a court system. Why would there be? After all, everyone gets along and nobody would ever do anything mean to anyone else!
Tim
 
 
In a message dated 11/7/[masked]:15:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
In addition to what Randy states, I would also point out that in your scenario, the government does not exist and these property owners--whose financial means may encompass a vast range of capability--would have to handle all of the detective work AND pay for attorney fees AND hope that Monsanto is unable to rig the trial or fund their own battalion of attorneys.  AND have the wherewithal and patience to endure years of litigation and legal tactics from the defendant--even presuming that the property owners were able to afford the necessary detective work to even establish a case in the first place!
 
To offer you a specific case, recently, a couple of elderly company owners deliberately dumped a 55 gallon drum of cyanide into Rocky River, killing thousands of fish and poisoning the water downstream and into Lake Erie.  It was the work of the EPA and the State wildlife officers who finally discovered the culprits and filed the charges.  The people using the river or living downstream from the event lacked both the funds as well as the expertise to solve the crime.
 
 
Both agencies are agencies that would either not exist or be gutted under any degree of libertarianism.  In fact, under your scenario, this couple would not only get away with their crime, but be congratulated as true libertarians, doing whatever the fuck they wanted, no matter the cost or damage to others.  We in this group ARE freethinkers--at least most of us are--and we are open to new ideas and to alternative points of view.  But libertarianism has been examined by most of us and rejected as an extreme ideology that "works" only for people like the above-mentioned couple.  It basically fucks anyone who is not rich and is unfortunate enough to live "downstream".
 
And no, I do not "misunderstand" libertarianism.  
 
Tim Campbell
 
 
In a message dated 11/7/[masked]:56:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
" Therefore, as an example,   the property owners downstream from the Monsanto factory  would be able to sue the corporation into oblivion for messing up their land and water. "

What a wonderful solution. Let the Goddam corporations foul up the water and wreck havoc on the health and welfare of the people and then sue the bastards. Let's forget about organizing the system so that regulations have some chance of preventing the corporation from screwing up the environment in the first place and putting people at risk.. Sure, lets do away with the EPA and all environmental regulation. Let's deal with the problem after the damage, injury and harm are already done. This is bullshit. Your freakin solution doesn't care about the welfare of people. And, yes, it should be obvious that your comment has hit a raw nerve and pissed me off! This is a goddam heartless point of view.
 
You are wrong about my libertarian education. I have spoken to many libertarians. I have read some of the same libertarian literature that you and others almost certainly have read. I did not learn libertarianism from any anti-libertarians. I examined the libertarian economic and political philosophy and literature and concluded that while the libertarian viewpoint on liberty has much merit, the libertarian economic view and trust in free markets is pure bullshit.
 
Randy
 

From: Russell Stanton <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, November 7,[masked]:55 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Who?

The misunderstandings of libertarianism  are very apparent now.   Who was it that taught you antilibertarians about libertarianism?   (it was antilibertarians I’d suspect)    And now I also readily admit that there are many people I like to call Wall Street libertarians,  who think corporations actually should have human rights.   Those people really aren’t libertarians at all!    Let’s  at least get that straight.   ....Lots of other misunderstandings you’ve indicated -   in a libertarian  society,  individual rights,  which includes the rights of land owners,  reigns supreme.   Therefore, as an example,   the property owners downstream from the Monsanto factory  would be able to sue the corporation into oblivion for messing up their land and water.    I really wish everyone would learn more about the history of corporations.    It’s almost as important as understanding the money and banking system,  and of course the history of all of that.     There is a very active group in Cleveland  dedicated to monetary education and peace activism (the two are very related to each other).   I like them a lot except that they want the government to do too much for us.  But I do wish more people would get involved with this group.   Here is some info from their latest newsletter....                                                                                                                                                                ;                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Monetary History Calendar
We continue to publish weekly our monetary history calendar.
To receive them, see below.
Move to Amend – Ohio
Move to Amend - Cleveland
Move to Amend Summit County
http://movetoamend.org/oh-akron  ( You DON’T have to be a Quaker to join them)                                                                                                                                                               & nbsp;                                                                                                                                                                &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                &nb sp;                                                                                                                                                     ......And oh good grief how I wish everyone would understand that the 1776 revolt was as much against the English corporations as it was against the King.  Early in US history people remembered the dangers of corporations.  Then they got lazy and stupid.  The “eternal vigilance” warning was not headed.    It was a very long incremental  process that lead to corporations having the powers they possess  today -  and all of it was done with the help of your mainstream politicians of bothe parties!                                                                                                                                                                 ;                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes we humans are not inherently rational.   We are greedy and wasteful  and have multitudes of bad traits -  with us all having our own unique  degree of those traits both bad ones and the less bad ones.    That’s exactly why a libertarian/  free market system is the most fair sort of system.   I have to suspect that most people who don’t like liberty have probably learned all about it from people who don’t like liberty for other people  and only want it for themselves -  or else they are some strange sort of psychopaths.     I only wish I could be better at explaining the whole thing.   Apologies for my ineptitudes at it,                                                                                                                                                                &nbs p;                                                                                                                                                                  ;                                                                              Rus
 
Sent: Tuesday, November 06,[masked]:28 PM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Who?
 
Randy: 

It's funny your argument is the same one I use to
explain why religion will always remain with us. 
It would seem that we are both 'Tilting at windmills'. 

Change has to begin somewhere otherwise it is
not change.   


Mr. Campbell: 

In an earlier post you said "I am NOT a slave to Corporate
America."   You also say that there is an enormous gulf
between the two candidates, Obama and Romney regarding
economics, foreign policy and social issues.  From the last
debate which was dedicated to foreign policy, there was a
lot of agreement.  Regarding economics and social issues
the Presidency is mostly impotent.  These are under the
purview the Federal Reserve and Congress respectfully. 
The Federal Reserve is a closed door.  And Congress is a
revolving door open to lobbyists.  This is the system regardless
of party.  Did you know that the R.N.C. and the D.N.C. are
private organizations?  And yet they receive public funds,
our tax dollars, as well as corporate donations.   

A two party America is a Corporate America.  And the party
faithful follow, faithfully. 

I'll take Quixotic. 


M. Orel
We always get the government we deserve


On[masked]:16, Tim Campbell wrote:
In a message dated 11/6/2012 1:04:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
Obviously, I agree with Randy here.  In voting this afternoon, I noted a number of third-party/independents running for President.  They seemed to represent pretty much single-issue candidacies.  Both the Libertarian and the socialist are out to radically change the TYPE of government here in the U.S. ALL of them are Quixotic in nature and NONE of them in stand a chance of winning in the real world.  And quite frankly, I did not see a single one who attracted me enough to even consider being "brave and bold" enough to vote for him or her.
 
Regardless, I see voting to them as equal to betting on the Cleveland Browns to win the Super Bowl, when the New York Giants and the New England Patriots are the ACTUAL teams playing in the Super Bowl!  "Brave and Bold" perhaps, but a nice monetary gift to the bookie nonetheless!
 
Tim Campbell
 
 
Recall that I said the libertarian economic view is utopian and this why it won't work. Utopian solutions don't work and can't work given the nature of the human species. What makes libertarianism utopian? The view that individuals will work and behave rationally in their own self-interest. This is a fantasy. Humans are not inherently rational. Rationalism is not the default position of the human brain. Libertarian economics assumes the rational-person theory of markets. But the markets and capitalism are not inherently rational enterprises because humans are not inherently rational beings. Any ideology - economic, political or other - that does not acknowledge this simply won't work in the long run. As Tim pointed out you may and can have some short-term successes with it. I am convinced, however, that it will only greatly magnify the already morally offensive wealth and income inequality that already exists, and ultimately fail.  Why will libertarian economics fail?  I am convinced it would do so for essentially the same reason that communism failed. Both are utopian views of human behavior and how to organize human society. Both hold, I am convinced, false assumptions about human behavior, human psychology and human society.
 
Randy
 

From: Tim Campbell mailto:[address removed]
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, November 6,[masked]:26 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Who?
 
I think you have answered your own question here and shown WHY libertarianism has not worked and will not work in a complex industrial urbanized society for a species that is NOT devoid of greed, opportunism, and dishonesty. At least not for more than about ten minutes!
 
Simply put, open henhouses result in fewer chickens, not more! 
 
The post-Civil War industrialization of the U.S. was in fact very much a libertarian effort, and the result was expansion of the nation and the nation's economy on one hand, and great misery and inequality on the other. 
 
It is difficult to eliminate the "people with other-than-libertarian principles".
 
Playing a game without a ref may work on a small local non-professional level, but imagine the NFL--with all its millions of dollars at stake, trying to play their season without refs--with the players calling their own penalties and placements! 
 
Tim Campbell
 
In a message dated 11/6/2012 8:32:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
How could anyone know that what ails our economy couldn’t be fixed by libertarian solutions?    Libertarian solutions have never been used for more than ten minutes before they were corrupted by people with  other-than-libertarian principles.                                         







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