Re: [humanism-174] My reply to an email my sister forwarded to me.....

From: Chris K
Sent on: Friday, November 23, 2012 11:23 AM
Simply that. There could be no other allegiance in these regimes.  You were either unquestionably obedient to the state and its head or you were eliminated. No dissidence was permitted.   

You had to believe in everything put forth by the leadership or at least claim to do so.   

Look at Lysenkoism in Soviet Russia.  

Chris




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On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:57 AM, "Mark R. Orel" <[address removed]> wrote:

Chris:


What did you mean when you wrote,
The state WAS the religion, complete
with unquestionable dogma, ritual,
and all the other accoutrements."
?


M. Orel

On[masked]:11, Chris K wrote:

Mark-

You left out the most important part of dogma.  It cannot be questioned.

Can you tell me the dogma of science, humanism and politics?

How am I contradicting my statement that the state can be a religion?

Chris



Sent from my ayayayphone

On Nov 23, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Mark R. Orel" <[address removed]> wrote:

Chris:

Dogma, is a doctrine; tenet; belief. 
Ritual, a set form or system of rites,
religious or otherwise. 
Science, politics, humanism, all have
dogma and ritual, and spots even more
so. 

Religion does not require a supreme
being.  You are contradicting your own
assertion that the state can be a religion. 
"What always gets me is that people seem
to think that the Stalinist Russia and Maoist
China had no religion.  That couldn't be further
from the truth.  The state WAS the religion,
complete with unquestionable dogma, ritual,
and all the other accoutrements."



M. Orel

On[masked]:36, Chris K wrote:
Actually, no. 

There has to be dogma, a supreme being and ritual. 

Chris


Sent from my ayayayphone

On Nov 23, 2012, at 2:58 AM, "Mark R. Orel" <[address removed]> wrote:

Chris:

So you are using religion as,
any system of belief's, practices,
ethical values, etc., resembling,
suggestive of, or likened to such a
system.  In that humanism, science,
politics and anything else can be a
religion. 


M. Orel


On [masked]:52, Chris K wrote:
No, the state was the religion. 

Whatever Hitler's true beliefs were (and what do we really know of anyone's?) we can refer to a hundred instances in which he portrays himself as a Christian and none in which he portrays himself as an atheist. 

I have never said the president wasn't as religious as he makes himself out to be although many have asserted it. 

Chris


Sent from my ayayayphone

On Nov 22, 2012, at 1:43 PM, "Mark R. Orel" <[address removed]> wrote:

Chris:

Are you saying that atheism is a religion? 
Or they turned atheism into a religion?
Or this is what happens when an atheist
obtains absolute power?

As far as Hitler's religious beliefs go that is
up for debate.  I think the following passage
from "Mein Kampf" gives a good insight to
his real beliefs, absolute power. 

“I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art
which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only
the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved
a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its
success.”     Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf"   

I would also ask how many times has someone in
discussion said that President Obama isn't as
religious as he says he is? 


M. Orel

On [masked]:38, Chris K wrote:
Yep.  Here's a really nice list from Douglas Theobald via PZ Myers.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/17/list-of-hitler-quotes-in-honor/

What always gets me is that people seem to think that the Stalinist Russia and Maoist China had no religion.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  The state WA

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