Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

From: Tim C.
Sent on: Monday, January 7, 2013 12:57 PM
It is probably true that some if not many doctors ARE resistant to change.  But "resistant" certainly does not mean "refusal", and the vast majority of medical personnel WILL change as new treatments are SHOWN to be effective if not more effective than current treatments.  But to label medical science as being dogmatic and unwilling to change is ludicrous.  I agree with Randy here that too often, TC3, you write either before or without thinking about what you are writing. Either that, or you are terribly unknowledgeable about these subjects.  Not trying to ridicule you, but come on!   Think!
 
Now, if you are referring to controversy between modern WESTERN medicine and the so-called EASTERN medicines and the so-called homeopathic treatments, again, resistance and skepticism is not the same as outright rejection.  Should these treatments be PROVEN to be more effective than modern medical treatments, then eventually they will be accepted.  Unfortunately, acceptance will only come with good evidence, and that seems to be lacking as yet. And certainly, modern medicine has not been "proven to be wrong"!  THAT would be either a lie or a horrible exaggeration of the facts.
 
Tim Campbell
 
In a message dated 1/7/[masked]-:14:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
TC3,

"I think medical science is dogmatic because it is by the book and does not change even when proven wrong."

Do you actually give serious reflective thought to the things you say? You keep providing evidence that the answer to this question is no. Medical science doesn't change? This is pure horseshit. Why the hell do you think medical science has been so damn successful in improving the human condition and eradicating some disease and ameliorating the affects of so many others?  How is it that medical science has been capable of increasing human longevity, improving the health of billions worldwide, and decreasing mortality rates in all age groups over the past several centuries if it does not change? None of this would have happened if medicine was resistant to change, resistant to accepting when it was wrong. We'd still be stuck with practices such as bloodletting to cure disease if what you said were true. If you really believe this then why do you go to a doctor when something ails you? (I am of course assuming that you do avail yourself of modern science-based medicine.)

Furthermore, you offer no evidence that this statement is even remotely true. This claim is so outlandish it screams to be mocked and ridiculed. But before I launch full-scale use of such tactics I'll give you an opportunity to make a case for this patently false and absurd claim (couldn't resist starting with a little ridicule). Give it your best shot. Provide the evidence or recant this statement.

Randy


From: TC3 <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, January 7,[masked]:58 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

I stand corrected. lol My definition of hallucination is a bit more open than the dictionary, and I remember the previous definition discussion here. I think medical science is dogmatic because it is by the book and does not change even when proven wrong. by the way. Because I'll believe anything TED Talks tells me. woo woo!

here have a 2006 braingasm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQliI_WGaGk


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
If the object being observed is demonstrably "there", then the color of the object is NOT a hallucination, but an interpretation by the brain of a specific effect of light hitting that object.
 
If you used the word "invent" or "interpret", you would be more accurate than by calling a real effect a hallucination.  You might want to discuss definitions with Mark Orel privately. According to one online medical dictionary, "Hallucinations are false or distorted sensory experiences that appear to be real perceptions".  There may be other definitions, but this is the one most commonly used by professionals and by non-professionals in the field of psychiatry.  Based on that definition, I do not see how anyone can think of the human perception of the color blue (or any other color) as a hallucination. 
 
If you added the preface "could be" to your earlier claims (universe could be...), then I for one would have had no argument as there is no evidence to support or disprove your contentions.  I might disagree, but offering a wild idea as a possibility is one thing; claiming something as a fact is quite another. 
 
As for the movie cliche, I was playing down several levels out of consideration. 
 
Tim Campbell  
 
In a message dated 1/6/2013 1:18:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
I'm speaking of our interpretation of what is there. past the threshold of our sense organs is only interpretation of electrical impulses. Light itself does not influence the brain. The brain has to invent the experience as a result, meaning it hallucinates everything we thing we "see".
Belief is irrelevant. So is comparing this description to the first over the top cliche' movie that comes to mind. 


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
I do not know Dr. Feynman personally and I have only partially read his COSMOLOGY. Therefore, I would not argue one way or the other about what Feynman might or might not think about TC3's MATRIX-like comments. 
 
I WOULD say that there is a spoon and neither TC3 nor Mark Orel (nor Dr. Feynman or me or Randy) can dodge bullets or leap from tall buildings without experiencing immense pain upon landing. 
 
A hallucination is a vision of something that is not actually there. Color is a perception based on something that IS there:  light wavelengths being absorbed or reflected by different materials in such a way as to appear as color to the human eye.  While the actual color may be subject to the brain's interpretation, the light waves ARE there and their absorption and reflection is measurable, observable, repeatable, and predictable. This takes perception of color out of the framework of hallucination--either individual or mass. 
 
As for the larger context of this universe being some sort of mass hallucination or as one SF writer put it "a mote in God's Eye", that is for the woo woo specialists to muse about while smoking dope, dropping acid, or examining their own navels for evidence of universal consciousness (only available from the Dalai Lama and only as a gratuity for good service as a caddy).   In other words, whatever.
 
Tim Campbell
 
In a message dated 1/6/2013 9:28:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
Just my opinion based on what I know about
Dr.  Feynman. 

M. Orel
On[masked]:45, Randy Pelton wrote:
Precisely how do you get from Fenyman's remarks you quoted to the idea that Fenyman would or might agree with the assertion that what each of us experiences about the natural world is an hallucination?  Furthermore, the hypothesis that the universe is a single electron or a hologram seem more scientific conjecture or speculation than empirically verified facts or explanations. I'd be skeptical of accepting them without a considerable amount of reservation, at least until a body of evidence sufficiently convincing and compelling is offered to warrant acceptance of said hypotheses.

Randy 


From: Mark R. Orel <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, January 6,[masked]:31 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

Actually Richard Feynman may have agreed with TC3. 
He. Dr. Feynman in his Nobel lecture, Described Dr. Wheeler's
hypothesis that the universe consists of only one electron
that moves though space and time which allows it to appear
everywhere at any time. 

The following may be of interest given the conversation. 

The holographic principle states that the entropy of ordinary mass (not just black holes)
is also proportional to surface area and not volume; that volume itself is illusory and the
universe is really a hologram which is isomorphic  to the information "inscribed" on the
surface of its boundary. 

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

In 1990, Wheeler suggested that information is fundamental to the physics of the universe.
According to this "it from bit" doctrine, all things physical are information-theoretic in origin
Wheeler: It from bit. Otherwise put, every "it" — every particle, every field of force, even the
space-time continuum itself — derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely —
even if in some contexts indirectly — from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no
questions, binary choices, bits. "It from bit" symbolizes the idea that every item of the
physical world has at bottom — a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial
source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing
of yes — no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that all
things physical are information-theoretic in origin and that this is a participatory universe.
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler


M. Orel 



On[masked]:48, Tim Campbell wrote:
Exactly. But feynman would laugh at your burroughs/matrix/hallucination horsecrap.



-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed]
To: humanism-174
Sent: Sat, Jan 5,[masked]:34 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

I thought the word 'pattern' to be ironic in that statement.lloll  Feynman said "if you think you understand it, you don't understand it."


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
Lol. I doubt that any one really understands that one. Feynman maybe.




-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed]
To: humanism-174
Sent: Sat, Jan 5,[masked]:58 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

A nice sciency conversation. Can someone please explain to me how in the double slit particle photon experiment, the photon particles act differently when they are observed. I understand that it happens. But I don't understand how it happens or what it means to the future of quantum physics.

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
Not even in the ballpark tc3. Illusion due to natural properties of light and the capabilities of our eyes. Not hallucination.




-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed]
To: humanism-174
Sent: Sat, Jan 5,[masked]:23 pm
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

The sky isn't really blue. Color itself is a hallucination. LSD is a naturally occurring brain chemical. I'm not projecting. We're all hallucinating reality all the time.


On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Randy Pelton <[address removed]> wrote:
"It is a fact that when you look at something, it changes because you looked at it."

Bullshit. This is not true. You have taken an idea from quantum theory about something that happens at the quantum level and extrapolated it, incorrectly, to the macroscopic world. You evidently have a misunderstanding of quantum theory and what it says about natural phenomena. What you have said here is no different than the New Age nonsense that Deepak Chopra so idiotically spouts. I suggest you read up on quantum theory before you make any further statements based on principles from quantum theory about how things work in the universe. You apparently have no idea how incredibly foolish the above statement makes you look to persons who actually know something about quantum theory and its relationship to the natural world.

"We're all experiencing the universe only through different hallucination interpretations."

Horseshit. Perhaps you are in some constant hallucinogenic state. But don't project your delusions onto the rest of us. This statement is made without any offer of evidence that it is true.

Randy


From: TC3 <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Saturday, January 5,[masked]:57 PM

Subject: Re: [humanism-174] In "Garlic Man" We Trust :)

I don't have an imaginary fence. I have a dragon in my imaginary garage. lol


On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 6:27 PM, sheri presloid <[address removed]> wrote:
If your dog can stay with in your imaginary fence, you win.
On Jan 5,[masked]:19 PM, "TC3" <[address removed]> wrote:
What about just a connection to each other? like cells in an organism are individuals but connected. we know em fields exist and wireless transfer of data exists, it's just when we say aura or tele whatever there's a sort of dogmatic judgmental interpretation expected. We're all experiencing the same universe only through different hallucination interpretations. It is a fact that when you look at something, it changes because you looked at it. What literally happens when for example, thousands of individuals observe the same thing at the same time? If a particle can be in more than one place in time then can data also be? I think it's only a matter of making small enough antennas.


On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
That would demonstrate either telekinetic powers or a connection to supernatural beings.  Or a trick.
Tim Campbell
 
In a message dated 1/5/[masked]:56:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
What if the spiritual person consistently has the fences built, seemingly as a result of their thoughts?


On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 3:23 PM, sheri presloid <[address removed]> wrote:
Research has suggested "spiritual" people may suffer worse mental health than conventionally religious, agnostic or atheist people. 

My thoughts on this are as follows (tongue in cheek examples):

Spiritual people think in their heads that a fence will be built if they wish it so.  Since they are "thinking" it and not "saying" it,  it won't be built since no one heard them.

Religious people pray out loud and possibly tell everyone in their congregation that they hope "god" helps them get that fence up in the Spring time. It comes through because the congregation heard their fellow worshiper needs help with a fence and they all pulled through to make it happen (but that person KNOWS it was "god" that made it happen and not the people of the congregation).

The Agnostic and Atheist people will make phone calls, search the internet and find the best (cheapest) way to get that fence up.  They call their friends and family and ask for some help from them in return for pizza and beer.  The fence is done.

That was probably not the best example, but I am sure I got my point across. ha




On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]> wrote:
"Spiritual but not religious"- a term that can imply adherence to nonsense, but not necessarily so as this author shows-




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