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Re: [humanism-174] Fwd: Bogus Louisiana Teacher Survey Used to Support Centr...

From: Tim C.
Sent on: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 4:13 PM
Mark is right here--on two levels.
First, he is correct that evolution-including human evolution-is a working theory. Where most of us are annoyed is his characterization of the modern synthesis as being "a good" working theory.  I would certainly prefer "The", "Best", "most likely", "pretty darn certain".  But then I'm not Mark Orel.
I have seen more than enough of the evidence and talked to more than a few people who work in the field and appear to know what they are talking about to be firmly convinced that any of the above descriptive words or phrases would be far superior to the very lame "a good". 
But do any of us really want to spend any more time trying to convince Mark to abandon the adjective that he feels most comfortable with?  
I don't.
So really, if Mark wishes to refer to human evo as "a good working theory", who cares?
Tim Campbell
In a message dated 2/6/2013 3:16:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [address removed] writes:
First, I don't know what happened with the blank message.


It's time to call it.  You find human evolution certain I see it
as a good working theory.

I hope to attend your program next week at the Brecksville Library.

M. Orel

On[masked]:13, Glen wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> "If a scientist considers a theory, that is lacking in
> evidence, like human evolution, which is lacking
> some major finds, to be 99.99% certain, then this
> person is now predisposed to associate any new
> evidence to fit that theory.  The scientist has a bias
> to that theory, this makes for bad science.  If you
> expect a thing you will find it so.
> Mark, I know you're not a YEC, but you're sounding as illogical and stubborn as one now. First, for reasons we've explained more times than we should have had to, the evidence that humans and other life evolved is not "lacking," if you mean insufficient to have strong confidence in it. It's abundant, multifaceted and compelling. Plus,there's no other plausible natural explanation that has even been proposed, let alone supported with evidence. Have you even taken the time to read some of the resources we directed you which confirm these things, or does your own bias --maybe some need to hang onto doubts, get in the way?  If you're using the word "lacking" to mean "not totally complete," and that justifies your doubts, then as also discussed before, you could say the same about virtually anything, including your own existence. Oh, right,  you've already done that.
>      You also seem to have trouble recognizing, let alone explaining, the apparent inconsistencies in your views. On the one hand you repeatedly question human evolution; on the other acknowledge that all life is related, which implies that all life evolved. So which is it? Seems like you have a lot of cognitive dissonance.  If I've misunderstood you, please explain how all life can be physically related, and yet not related by evolution.
> When I said that it seemed odd that Mark questioned human evolution but lent credence t Dr. Ockels far out ideas, he wrote:
>     "It always amazes me how people add their own meaning
> to what I write.  How is saying that something is interesting
> the same as lending credence to it.  You, and Randy drew
> an inference that does not exist.   And I do, still find Dr. Ockels
> concept interesting and something to think about.
> Thanks for the clarification, but based on it, I think our comments were entirely justified.  If you find well established things hard to accept, but think we should spend time thinking about things that are demonstrably illogical and totally lacking in evolution, then we have entirely different ways of approaching the world.  Frankly, it doesn't look like your "postmodernist" views are serving you well when it comes to judging the relative merits of various ideas.  But at risk of beating a dead horse, or getting more semantic quibbles, may I ask just what exactly you find so interesting or time-worthy about Dr. Orkel's ideas?  Do you think any are well supported, and if so, which ones and how?  If not, are you generally interested in, or spend much time on, ideas that are devoid of evidence, consistency, and logic, while casting doubts on well established ones?
>       To me, the only interesting thing about Dr. O's ideas are the psychological issues I discussed last time. And in terms of time, not only do I think his views unworthy of more time (unless he submits them to testing and per review) but like Randy, I rue the time I lost and will  never get back, listening to his lame speech.
> "And one other point, it was you who continually brought God
> into the conversation.  I never associated God or religion with
> evolution.
> All I did initially is ask how you think humans got here if they did not evolve, noting that the only other alternative would seem to be God planting evidence or screwing with our heads. That's when you suggested that well, maybe he was.  After you did that, don't blame me for further questioning you about it.  I am more perplexed than ever about your views now. If you don't believe in God, or want to talk about that, then why would you agree he might be screwing with our heads, and why do you question the only natural explanation of our origin, which happens to also have lots of evidence behind it?
> M. Orel

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