Re: [humanism-174] "The Bible" on History Channel

From: Tim C.
Sent on: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:24 PM
 
 
In a message dated 3/13/2013 2:28:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
Mr. Humphreys:  

Thank you for a well reasoned response. 

First, my rant was not meant to be specific to
the WTC, rather it was to point out that there are
"conspiracies" out there that deserve, that require
our attention.  And to think of all conspiracies as
irrational, is irrational, and dangerous.
I do not think that anyone here, let alone me, has maintained that "all conspiracies" are irrational.  Anytime two or more people plan a crime, you have a conspiracy.  There are millions of such conspiracies that have occurred and continue to occur every day.  And there are very likely conspiracies that occur at a very high level, perhaps the highest levels.  Bay of Pigs was the result of a conspiracy.  Some might call it a plan gone wrong, but it was unquestionably the result of a conspiracy among members of the JFK cabinet, military, CIA, and the president himself. 
 
Where the "irrational" aspect enters into the conversation is when people with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever, no direct or even indirect connection to an event, begin to tout "theories" that require such expenditures of energy and people in order to succeed that secrecy becomes almost impossible, and while none of the hundreds of trained professional investigators miss the truth, only THEY see the elephant behind the sofa and the secret passages in the Kama Sutra that reveal the truths hidden to us mere mortals.
 
 To imagine that EVERY event that occurs is the result of high-level manipulations IS irrational, especially when the theory depends on omissions of action that are more easily explained as accidental or unnecessary to the process.


As to the WTC specifically, you are mistaken to assume
that I believe that our Government colluded with Al-Qaeda. 
I think that was just an unfortunate coincidence. 
The conspiracy, I believe is much more mundane. 
I believe the buildings were being prepared for demolition,
to make way for a new complex.  I just see the Federal
Government as inept, at least in this matter.
Really?  An interesting observation.  So the worst attack on American soil (in terms of deaths) since the Civil War was really the fortuitous prelude to a giant urban renewal project?   What evidence--real evidence, not internet musings by nutjobs--that two of the largest towers in the world were slated for demolition?  And are you saying that this attack simply worked into the plans of the developers?  You are insulted when I accuse you of irrationality and being a loon, but YOU wrote the above paragraph.  And even if developers were looking at changing the usage of the area and removing the existing structures, do you really see this attack as an "inept" government maneuver, perhaps to aid the developers? 


The first N.I.S.T. report was a joke it was published in 2002. 
The preface alone was enough to the most ardent skeptic believe
a cover-up was taking place.  I have been looking for structural
forensic data as described in the Scientific American article. 
Good for you.  Most of us watched the second aircraft fly into the second tower.  Witnesses described the first crash and that was verified by FAA and others on the ground and inside the towers after the crashes.  Aircraft wreckage was found inside the debris of both towers, at the Pentagon, and in a field in PA.  Bush was at a grade school, but perhaps Cheney and several minions were waiting in the basements of both towers in order to set off timed charges that would then bring the towers down, despite the destructive capabilities of two giant fully-fueled jumbo jets hitting tall buildings at about 300 or 400 miles per hour.  But we won't come to any conclusions until Mark Orel (structural engineer, physicist,aeronautical engineer, and expert in Hungarian and Taiwanese cuisine) has had the chance to study the structural forensic data.  ONLY THEN will we be able to sleep at night, knowing that Mark Orel and his own minions have drawn the correct conclusions.  Sheesh.

Unfortunately the raw data hasn't been available to the public. 
Yeah, otherwise, Mister Orel would have figured all of this out long ago!

I haven't had the time to keep up to date on this matter these
past few years, due to more personal responsibilities.
Perhaps a grant from the government will enable Mr. Orel to devote the time to this topic that it deserves. Obviously, the many agencies of the government and the thousands of people who worked on this were all under the way of government "social engineers". 

I will read the revised reports, hopefully they will be more
informative than amusing. 
Perhaps Mister Orel and his minion Rus can co-publish an article in SA or a book blowing the lid off this giant conspiracy.  Boy, won't I look foolish then?!!!! lol


M. Orel


On[masked]:13, Aaron Humphreys wrote:
Don't you understand that it just doesn't matter 
that no forensic tests of any type were conducted on 

any of the aircraft, or buildings.  

Forensic tests on the building/bodies found in building:

If you read the article in scientific american linked above, you will see that extensive forensic tests were performed on parts of the planes and buildings.  Clearly it was no longer a building due to the fact that the buildings fell and destroyed much of the evidence.  The bulk of the building was destroyed to the point that it could not be used by the investigators in forensics tests.  However, numerous forensics tests were conducted on actual remnants of the building. 

"more than 200 investigators gathered all the evidence they could to reconstruct the situation the buildings faced before and after the catastrophe. They analyzed 236 pieces of steel obtained from the wreckage, representing all grades of steel used in the buildings and including several pieces impacted by the aircraft or affected by fire. They obtained some 7,000 photographs and roughly 7,000 video segments totaling in excess of 150 hours from the media, public agencies and individual photographers. They compiled and reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents and interviewed more than 1,000 people who had been on the scene or had been involved with the design, construction and maintenance of the buildings. They conducted lab tests involving large fires and the heating of structural components."  (Article linked above)

If this doesn't describe forensic tests, I have misunderstood what you meant by that term.

Forensic tests were also conducted on the bodily remains in the rubble.


Why can't you accept 
the computer models as sited in the report. The report(s) 
clearly state that these are the "probable" sequences.  
Why do you want to be in a group of Architects, Fire Fighters, 
Police, and medical personal?  What the hell is wrong with 
You?  

As shown in the Scientific American article previously referenced, the computer models used were used due to convenience.  I suppose, you would like them to conduct more reliable tests by building numerous full scale replicas of the WTC, age them appropriately, and then crashing full size planes into them at similar a similar trajectory to see what might them occur after numerous tests. Unfortunately even a hundred or so tests of this type would not be enough to account for the large number of variables that are included in collisions of this type.  

They also reviewed "reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents and interviewed more than 1,000 people who had been on the scene or had been involved with the design, construction and maintenance of the buildings."  Perhaps some of these include your "architects, fire fighters, police, and medical personnel." 

I mean conspiracies aren't real.  I mean it isn't like we would 
ever infect our own people with syphilis (
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm).  
And who in their right mind would ever think a county like ours 
would ever be involved in  "False Flag" operations?  
Like we would ever allow one of our allies like Israel to 
bomb one of our own ships (
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html). 
Or like we would try a coup d'état of a democratically elected government
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)? 

None of these occurrences provide evidence for the argument regarding a vast conspiracy behind the 9-11 tragedy.  Due to a lack of time, I won't address them individually.   

And just because the Presidency is more powerful now than 
any other time in this counties history, 

Again, this is not evidence for a conspiracy.  This is evidence for the exploitation of this tragedy by the Bush administration to consolidate power into the executive branch.

and we have nothing 
but cowards in Congress who are more concerned about 
being re-elected rather than defending the Constitution, to 
which they swore, what is there to worry about?  

This is unrelated information, but I lean towards your sentiment here.

It's not like the 
President would ever consider the use of an unmanned aircraft 
to kill an American citizen on U.S. soil, without any kind of 
over-site.   

Again, this is unrelated information, but I do think that more oversight should be established for the use of armed or surveillance drones.

It's not like Congress picks the people, there are no safe 
Congressional seats, especially in Ohio, just look at the 
map, 
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/OH, it 
allows for free and fair elections.  

This is also unrelated. I agree with your sentiment here too.

M. Orel, I sympathize with you.  I don't agree with your implied conclusions, but I understand the urge to blame the federal government for such a tragic event.  It is hard to accept an event of such massive effects on our world does not have a sinister underworld behind it.  There was a conspiracy behind that fateful day.  It seems, given the evidence I have seen, that this conspiracy was perpetrated by Al Queda.  I am sorry, but in order to convince the rational minded, you have to make your theory seem more reasonable than all possible others.  As it stands, the "standard explanation" seems more plausible, perhaps with a few minor alterations or additions.  

Thanks for making me think :) 




On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:21 AM, Mark R. Orel <[address removed]> wrote:
Russell: 


I'm sorry but you are crazy.  The WTC is a closed book. 
Didn't you read the first Final Report in 2002, or the
second Final Report in 2008, and now it isn't even
being called the "Final Report" last up-dated June
2012.  Don't you understand that it just doesn't matter
that no forensic tests of any type were conducted on
any of the aircraft, or buildings.  Why can't you accept
the computer models as sited in the report. The report(s)
clearly state that these are the "probable" sequences. 
Why do you want to be in a group of Architects, Fire Fighters,
Police, and medical personal?  What the hell is wrong with
You? 

I mean conspiracies aren't real.  I mean it isn't like we would
ever infect our own people with syphilis (
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm). 
And who in their right mind would ever think a county like ours
would ever be involved in  "False Flag" operations? 
Like we would ever allow one of our allies like Israel to
bomb one of our own ships (
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html).
Or like we would try a coup d'état of a democratically elected government
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)?

And just because the Presidency is more powerful now than
any other time in this counties history, and we have nothing
but cowards in Congress who are more concerned about
being re-elected rather than defending the Constitution, to
which they swore, what is there to worry about?  It's not like the
President would ever consider the use of an unmanned aircraft
to kill an American citizen on U.S. soil, without any kind of
over-site.  

It's not like Congress picks the people, there are no safe
Congressional seats, especially in Ohio, just look at the
map,
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/OH, it
allows for free and fair elections. 

I'm sorry Russell, but come on...I mean get real and stick your
head back in the ground like the rest of us.  I'm sorry for being
so hard on you, but you did ask for it. 


M. Orel  

I




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