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Re: [humanism-174] "The Bible" on History Channel

From: Russell S.
Sent on: Thursday, March 14, 2013 1:37 AM
Oh my,  how this group can develop a topic in two days that I’ve been away from it!   ....INteresting.     Actually I was hoping it would go more in the direction of how much we subjects should be trusting our government-corporate rulers in general  (or not).   but going down this single branch of the rabbit hole is good too.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For those who seem to be invested in proving the conspiracy theorists to be nothing but nuts,   I have to wonder how much are you all literally invested in it.   I mean how much are you invested directly or indirectly in those many war profiteering companies.    You make me think of one of my favorite old Upton Sinclair quotes: 
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."    If you say you are too ethical to profit by investing in any of those companies,  I’ll try to believe you.    (no guarentees  I’ll be able to)    If you say that’s none of my business I’d agree ofcourse.   But if you’re going to judge me by what I believe,  it’s only fair for you to be judged by what you want the rest of us to believe or not believe -  and just how badly it is that you want the rest of us to believe the same as yourself.    Whether you’re wondering or not,  my main goal has become preventing the next needless war this country is heading for,  and/or  slowing or stoping  our continuing march toward serfdom.      ....so I haven’t made lots of progress on those goals yet.    That means I have to keep trying harder.    I didn’t have much else to do this week anyway.  (nothing much more important for the whole duration either actually)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It really is good to find I’m not the only one here who  doesn’t have total trust in what those people we’ve elected and their legions of appointed burocrats  tell us.    Watch out Tim.   There maybe only a few of us now,  but one by one we intend to  start waking  normal people up and some day you might be the only one who doesn’t know what’s  swerlling over you head.  Seriously though,   I’ll bet every one of us can think of at least one time that  our grand US government has lied to us.    Why should we or our kids believe them next time they say they tell us it will be a really swell idea to go drop bombs on that little axis of evil over there -   haven’t we learned by now that we should never trust our President or any of his people that much?!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But back to the WTC destruction branch of the rabbit hole -    like I started to say,  it was interesting how this topic developed.   Did anyone even take one look at the 9-11 Truth website I suggested?   Here’s the link one more time:  http://www.ae911truth.org/.    I didn’t say one thing about who was responsible for bringing the three buildings down.   That website says NOTING about who was responsible.   They/ I have only said we are sure the sole  cause was not the two airplanes and we demand,  this whole country ought to demand a thorough and legitimate investigation.   How many people here think that a thorough and legitimate investigation has been done ?    IF we ever have  such an investigation  maybe we’ll find out the worst conspiracy theorists are right,  maybe  we’ll only find some fantasicly high levels of incompetence and coincidences.   But first we damned well ought to find out  whatever truth we still can.    It was disappointing to see that no one was debating the claims made by the group of 1,700+  architects, engineers and other experts who have signed on to that website.   Do you think that whole thing was put together by some little bunch of "conspiracy theorists”?    Really,  I hoped the people in this group were not so much ones to jump to such conclusions -   if anyone in the world doesn’t believe everything from the Bush 43 Administration then they MUST also  believe A, B, C and D,  just like all the other conspiracy theorists.  Well,  no actually!   I gess I have to explain  all of us conspiracy theorists don’t necessarily agree with all others.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       And sorry for completely neglecting to include the link to that 6 minute video I mentioned in my last post.   It has some good insights about skepicism  in general,  and people who seem to get psychological benefits from ridiculing people who have differing beliefs from the ones they have,  in particular:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BJA1R8YIHk.    “Real skeptics question everything -  especially their own assumptions”!  (from that video)                                                                                                                                                      Rus                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 13,[masked]:25 PM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] "The Bible" on History Channel
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/13/2013 2:28:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
Mr. Humphreys:  

Thank you for a well reasoned response. 

First, my rant was not meant to be specific to
the WTC, rather it was to point out that there are
"conspiracies" out there that deserve, that require
our attention.  And to think of all conspiracies as
irrational, is irrational, and dangerous.
I do not think that anyone here, let alone me, has maintained that "all conspiracies" are irrational.  Anytime two or more people plan a crime, you have a conspiracy.  There are millions of such conspiracies that have occurred and continue to occur every day.  And there are very likely conspiracies that occur at a very high level, perhaps the highest levels.  Bay of Pigs was the result of a conspiracy.  Some might call it a plan gone wrong, but it was unquestionably the result of a conspiracy among members of the JFK cabinet, military, CIA, and the president himself. 
 
Where the "irrational" aspect enters into the conversation is when people with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever, no direct or even indirect connection to an event, begin to tout "theories" that require such expenditures of energy and people in order to succeed that secrecy becomes almost impossible, and while none of the hundreds of trained professional investigators miss the truth, only THEY see the elephant behind the sofa and the secret passages in the Kama Sutra that reveal the truths hidden to us mere mortals.
 
To imagine that EVERY event that occurs is the result of high-level manipulations IS irrational, especially when the theory depends on omissions of action that are more easily explained as accidental or unnecessary to the process.


As to the WTC specifically, you are mistaken to assume
that I believe that our Government colluded with Al-Qaeda. 
I think that was just an unfortunate coincidence. 
The conspiracy, I believe is much more mundane. 
I believe the buildings were being prepared for demolition,
to make way for a new complex.  I just see the Federal
Government as inept, at least in this matter.
Really?  An interesting observation.  So the worst attack on American soil (in terms of deaths) since the Civil War was really the fortuitous prelude to a giant urban renewal project?   What evidence--real evidence, not internet musings by nutjobs--that two of the largest towers in the world were slated for demolition?  And are you saying that this attack simply worked into the plans of the developers?  You are insulted when I accuse you of irrationality and being a loon, but YOU wrote the above paragraph.  And even if developers were looking at changing the usage of the area and removing the existing structures, do you really see this attack as an "inept" government maneuver, perhaps to aid the developers? 


The first N.I.S.T. report was a joke it was published in 2002. 
The preface alone was enough to the most ardent skeptic believe
a cover-up was taking place.  I have been looking for structural
forensic data as described in the Scientific American article.
Good for you.  Most of us watched the second aircraft fly into the second tower.  Witnesses described the first crash and that was verified by FAA and others on the ground and inside the towers after the crashes.  Aircraft wreckage was found inside the debris of both towers, at the Pentagon, and in a field in PA.  Bush was at a grade school, but perhaps Cheney and several minions were waiting in the basements of both towers in order to set off timed charges that would then bring the towers down, despite the destructive capabilities of two giant fully-fueled jumbo jets hitting tall buildings at about 300 or 400 miles per hour.  But we won't come to any conclusions until Mark Orel (structural engineer, physicist,aeronautical engineer, and expert in Hungarian and Taiwanese cuisine) has had the chance to study the structural forensic data.  ONLY THEN will we be able to sleep at night, knowing that Mark Orel and his own minions have drawn the correct conclusions.  Sheesh.

Unfortunately the raw data hasn't been available to the public.
Yeah, otherwise, Mister Orel would have figured all of this out long ago!

I haven't had the time to keep up to date on this matter these
past few years, due to more personal responsibilities.
Perhaps a grant from the government will enable Mr. Orel to devote the time to this topic that it deserves. Obviously, the many agencies of the government and the thousands of people who worked on this were all under the way of government "social engineers".

I will read the revised reports, hopefully they will be more
informative than amusing. 
Perhaps Mister Orel and his minion Rus can co-publish an article in SA or a book blowing the lid off this giant conspiracy.  Boy, won't I look foolish then?!!!! lol


M. Orel


On[masked]:13, Aaron Humphreys wrote:
Don't you understand that it just doesn't matter
that no forensic tests of any type were conducted on

any of the aircraft, or buildings

Forensic tests on the building/bodies found in building:

If you read the article in scientific american linked above, you will see that extensive forensic tests were performed on parts of the planes and buildings.  Clearly it was no longer a building due to the fact that the buildings fell and destroyed much of the evidence.  The bulk of the building was destroyed to the point that it could not be used by the investigators in forensics tests.  However, numerous forensics tests were conducted on actual remnants of the building.

"more than 200 investigators gathered all the evidence they could to reconstruct the situation the buildings faced before and after the catastrophe. They analyzed 236 pieces of steel obtained from the wreckage, representing all grades of steel used in the buildings and including several pieces impacted by the aircraft or affected by fire. They obtained some 7,000 photographs and roughly 7,000 video segments totaling in excess of 150 hours from the media, public agencies and individual photographers. They compiled and reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents and interviewed more than 1,000 people who had been on the scene or had been involved with the design, construction and maintenance of the buildings. They conducted lab tests involving large fires and the heating of structural components."  (Article linked above)

If this doesn't describe forensic tests, I have misunderstood what you meant by that term.

Forensic tests were also conducted on the bodily remains in the rubble.


Why can't you accept
the computer models as sited in the report. The report(s)
clearly state that these are the "probable" sequences. 
Why do you want to be in a group of Architects, Fire Fighters,
Police, and medical personal?  What the hell is wrong with
You? 

As shown in the Scientific American article previously referenced, the computer models used were used due to convenience.  I suppose, you would like them to conduct more reliable tests by building numerous full scale replicas of the WTC, age them appropriately, and then crashing full size planes into them at similar a similar trajectory to see what might them occur after numerous tests. Unfortunately even a hundred or so tests of this type would not be enough to account for the large number of variables that are included in collisions of this type. 

They also reviewed "reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents and interviewed more than 1,000 people who had been on the scene or had been involved with the design, construction and maintenance of the buildings."  Perhaps some of these include your "architects, fire fighters, police, and medical personnel."

I mean conspiracies aren't real.  I mean it isn't like we would
ever infect our own people with syphilis (
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm). 
And who in their right mind would ever think a county like ours
would ever be involved in  "False Flag" operations? 
Like we would ever allow one of our allies like Israel to
bomb one of our own ships (
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html).
Or like we would try a coup d'état of a democratically elected government
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)?

None of these occurrences provide evidence for the argument regarding a vast conspiracy behind the 9-11 tragedy.  Due to a lack of time, I won't address them individually.  

And just because the Presidency is more powerful now than
any other time in this counties history,

Again, this is not evidence for a conspiracy.  This is evidence for the exploitation of this tragedy by the Bush administration to consolidate power into the executive branch.

and we have nothing
but cowards in Congress who are more concerned about
being re-elected rather than defending the Constitution, to
which they swore, what is there to worry about? 

This is unrelated information, but I lean towards your sentiment here.

It's not like the
President would ever consider the use of an unmanned aircraft
to kill an American citizen on U.S. soil, without any kind of
over-site.  

Again, this is unrelated information, but I do think that more oversight should be established for the use of armed or surveillance drones.

It's not like Congress picks the people, there are no safe
Congressional seats, especially in Ohio, just look at the
map,
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/OH, it
allows for free and fair elections. 

This is also unrelated. I agree with your sentiment here too.

M. Orel, I sympathize with you.  I don't agree with your implied conclusions, but I understand the urge to blame the federal government for such a tragic event.  It is hard to accept an event of such massive effects on our world does not have a sinister underworld behind it.  There was a conspiracy behind that fateful day.  It seems, given the evidence I have seen, that this conspiracy was perpetrated by Al Queda.  I am sorry, but in order to convince the rational minded, you have to make your theory seem more reasonable than all possible others.  As it stands, the "standard explanation" seems more plausible, perhaps with a few minor alterations or additions. 

Thanks for making me think :)




On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:21 AM, Mark R. Orel <[address removed]> wrote:
Russell: 


I'm sorry but you are crazy.  The WTC is a closed book. 
Didn't you read the first Final Report in 2002, or the
second Final Report in 2008, and now it isn't even
being called the "Final Report" last up-dated June
2012.  Don't you understand that it just doesn't matter
that no forensic tests of any type were conducted on
any of the aircraft, or buildings.  Why can't you accept
the computer models as sited in the report. The report(s)
clearly state that these are the "probable" sequences. 
Why do you want to be in a group of Architects, Fire Fighters,
Police, and medical personal?  What the hell is wrong with
You? 

I mean conspiracies aren't real.  I mean it isn't like we would
ever infect our own people with syphilis (
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm). 
And who in their right mind would ever think a county like ours
would ever be involved in  "False Flag" operations? 
Like we would ever allow one of our allies like Israel to
bomb one of our own ships (
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html).
Or like we would try a coup d'état of a democratically elected government
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)?

And just because the Presidency is more powerful now than
any other time in this counties history, and we have nothing
but cowards in Congress who are more concerned about
being re-elected rather than defending the Constitution, to
which they swore, what is there to worry about?  It's not like the
President would ever consider the use of an unmanned aircraft
to kill an American citizen on U.S. soil, without any kind of
over-site.  

It's not like Congress picks the people, there are no safe
Congressional seats, especially in Ohio, just look at the
map,
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/OH, it
allows for free and fair elections. 

I'm sorry Russell, but come on...I mean get real and stick your
head back in the ground like the rest of us.  I'm sorry for being
so hard on you, but you did ask for it. 


M. Orel  

I




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