Re: [humanism-174] "The Bible" on History Channel

From: Tim C.
Sent on: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 11:36 AM
 
 
In a message dated 4/2/[masked]:52:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
The evidence for explosives and thermite is unquestionable.
Non-existent, not unquestionable.  Please provide actual evidence: i.e. name of demo company, witness statements, bills of lading or invoicing for explosives to be purchased by NYPA and delivered to construction site of towers, photos of explosives being installed or in place, witness statements by members of NYPA, office workers who survived, demo company employees.  Otherwise, you have nothing more than fantasy speculation based on seeing the video of the attack and being mind-blown by the event.  Space aliens on equal footing. 

People will not look at what they don't want to see.
You presume that conspiracy on this basis alone?  You presume that because many of us doubt your and Mark Orel's assertions are automatically sheep or pawns or ignorant. That is your right, but highly presumptious and btw, very very wrong.  It is THIS assertion and belief by you that makes us think that there is something mentally wrong with you.

When a mormon knocks on my door and says
"Hello I have reached these conclusions and this version of myself is the result, please join me."
I say
"I will not even open your crazy book. Go away."
Missionaries do not talk that way. That is your interpretation of how they introduce themselves and engage you in conversation. 


Well, I (among many) have reached the conclusion that those were controlled demolitions. We look and sound crazy for seeing the obvious.
If your conclusions were obvious or even rational, the "many" you speak of would not consist almost exclusively of a hard-core cadre of people who see conspiracies in every corner!  AGAIN, EVIDENCE. Not assertions, EVIDENCE.  See my response to Orel for what constitutes evidence. Sorry, but the "controlled explosion" hypothesis is logistically too close to impossible to be given any serious consideration.  Too many people would need to be involved. Secrecy would be impossible and this cold not be pulled off without total secrecy.  Not minimum or close to total. Total.  One person involved talks and the whole thing collapses.  Too many people killed with too many live people (i.e. investigators) who lost loved ones and/or friends that day.  Sorry, but your assertions do not work in the real world.  Ask Richard Nixon. Ask Jimmy Dimora.


but a coincidence? Really!?









On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Tim Campbell <[address removed]> wrote:
lol, well yeah, you have kinda given us that impression, but here, Mr Orel has kicked you out of the starship and dove right into the sun!
 
In a message dated 4/2/2013 8:04:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
and people think I'm crazy . . . .

fml


On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Mark R. Orel <[address removed]> wrote:
Mr. Campbell:

You saw the folly in your statement and corrected,
good job. 

Okay, in my speculation the buildings were being
prepared for demolition.   Explosives are set. 
Because the N.Y.P.A. wants to do this with minimum
input by the public.  But the Port Authority doesn't count
on an attack by Al-Qaeda.  The buildings begin to topple.
In order to minimize the damage and loss of life, the
order is given to set of the charges causing the buildings
to implode into there foot print.  

Al-Qaeda is just an unfortunate coincidence.  

This is one speculation given the visual record.  What does
the forensic evidence support, I don't know, I haven't seen it. 



M. Orel  



On[masked]:10, Tim Campbell wrote:
What exactly is illogical or irrational about my statement?  Perhaps I should amend it by stating that the towers would MOST LIKELY still be standing today had they not been struck by passenger aircraft that had been hijacked by Al-Quaeda loons. I won't dignify these gutter people by calling them "operatives".
 
Of course I am presuming that the NYPA would not have hired Mafia goons or SPECTRE or THRUSH to sneak in and blow them up at another time, in order to make way for a "new skyline" as you so absurdly stated in another of your "geee why don't they bring me ALL the evidence; they must be hiding something if they don't show MEEEEEEE everything" posts.
 
YOU made two statements that had no evidentiary or logical connection with each other and have refused to justify them.  If that was your idea of an alternative explanation, then perhaps aliens from outer space conspiring with NYC cab drivers to make new city routes available might work also.
 
 
In a message dated 4/1/2013 2:37:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
Mr. Campbell: 

There is no dissonance on my part cognitive or otherwise. 
As I said before, when I was asked to give another
explanation with the evidence that I had available.  
And as I said, the only evidence I have is the visual
record.  I've been nothing but harmonious. 

FACT:  If Al-Quaeda loons had not flown passenger aircraft into the towers, they would still
be standing today.  


This is another illogical and irrational statement. 


M. Orel
On[masked]:10, Tim Campbell wrote:
Nonsense, Mark Orel.
 
You wrote:
"So, what's left but to speculate. What makes the most sense?
Three buildings that were losing occupancy. Real estate that
still had real value. The buildings were at about 1/2 to 3/4 of
their projected life expediency. Why not make room for a new,
more exciting skyline?"
 
AND you wrote:
 
As to the WTC specifically, you are mistaken to assume
that I believe that our Government colluded with Al-Qaeda.
I think that was just an unfortunate coincidence.
The conspiracy, I believe is much more mundane.
I believe the buildings were being prepared for demolition,
to make way for a new complex.
You accuse me of cognitive bias. 
YOU are guilty of cognitive dissonance.
YOU refuse to explain the link between Sentence three and sentence one in the second paragraph. And you claim that paragraph one does not imply anything? And you write both paragraphs without a single bit of supporting evidence (as you also admitted). 
 
If paragraph one does not place you squarely into the conspiraloon camp, it at least places you in their parking lot.  And paragraph written without any evidence is an obscene libel of men and women who had nothing to do with the attack on the towers and nothing to do with the eventual collapse of the towers.
 
FACT:  If Al-Quaeda loons had not flown passenger aircraft into the towers, they would still be standing today. 
 
There is no spoon. 
 
Tim Campbell
 
In a message dated 3/23/2013 4:10:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
Mr. Campbell: 

I implied nothing beyond what I wrote.  The implications
came from you, do to your bias.  My main points were,
and still are: "To point out that there are conspiracies
out there that deserve, that require our attention.  And
to think of all conspiracies as irrational, is irrational, and
dangerous".  

To have Government agencies that are tasked to investigate,
do so and not abandon their own standards.  And allow
reasonable access to the evidence that leads to whatever
conclusions are arrived at. 

I do not know if the conclusions as stated in the N.I.S.T reports
are correct or not.  I would like to evaluate the evidence for myself. 
And yes I do think I have the skills to do so.  One does not need to
design a 100 story building to evaluate its structural integrity or the
manner in which it is brought down.   Just as one need not have
ever written a mathematical proof to prove or disprove its validity.  
I only know that I have questions that have not been satisfied. 

And again I thank you for further demonstrating cognitive bias.

"And btw, there is a difference between demonstrating cognitive bias and expressing
an opinion based on conclusions made after evaluating evidence.  Especially opinions
expressed after reading YOUR opinions.   YOUR own words and innuendos demonstrated
that you are at least sympathetic to the conspiracy nuts, ( and there is sometimes a
difference between a conspiracy theorist and a nut, though the line is sometimes blurry!)

 
And apparently after spreading your own "don't trust the official conclusions until I have
reviewed the data and been satisfied" innuendos and implied "questions", you really
do not have any point at all.

 
Now the events were all just unfortunate coincidences that may or may not have to do
with a desired urban renewal project, or an insurance scam, or Al Quaeda or something
unknown. " 


Again your statements are not rationally based but emotional, and intuitive. 
All of the innuendos and implied "questions" are yours. 


M. Orel


On[masked]:30, Tim Campbell wrote:
Question: who is the real "skepdick"?
 
To be clear, as with any scientific theory, I accept CONDITIONALLY the conclusions of the NIST regarding the attack on and collapse of the WTC towers--1, 2, and 7.  I accept these conclusions CONDITIONALLY for two reasons:
 
1) their conclusions were plausible and supported by the evidence THAT THEY PRESENTED TO THE PUBLIC.  One can certainly question whether or not everything they saw was presented to the public or whether they saw everything that there was to see, but questioning without contrary evidence is one thing, doubting without contrary evidence is simply being contrary for the sake of being contrary--a characteristic of the conspiraloons.  Based on location and timing, pretty much everyone in the civilized world witnessed the events and saw the tragedy unfold countless times from numerous angles. 
 
2) Neither I nor Mr. Orel (unless I am mistaken) has ever been involved with the design, engineering, building, servicing, or demolition of a 100+ floor office building.  My own experience with structure has been limited to residential homes and small office buildings.  And none of the structures I have been involved with were ever impacted by flying aircraft.  Therefore, I am not qualified to demand more and more data from the NIST or any other investigative agency (except for the FBI, but that is a different topic and SHOULD be looked at for evidence of incompetence and hubris that borders on the criminal!).   That all said, I have not seen a single competing scenario that is at all plausible or even sane. 
 
None of the competing "theories" has ever been supported by any sort of actual evidence.  Innuendo, implication, occult symbolism, and disconnected threads are not evidence.
 
Mr. Orel is skeptical about the conclusions drawn by the NIST. He is skeptical while admitting to having no contrary evidence. Yet he has not shown himself to be skeptical about the conspiracy assertions that were posted here by Rus, assertions that the towers had been designed purposely to fail and/or purposely prepared with demolition devices that were the actual causes of the towers' collapses.  I, on the other hand, am conditionally accepting of the official explanations with the caveat that they are plausible but not necessarily 100% accurate, but am both skeptical AND doubting of all of the conspiracy scenarios that have been presented by the conspiracy theorists.
 
If that makes ME a skepdick, what does that make Mr. Orel? Is he a conspiraloon or himself a skepdick? Or does he just like posting contrary opinions without any regard for rationality or reality?  I have my own opinions on the matter; others may decide as they wish!
 
And since I can almost see Mark T rolling his eyes at yet another post on this topic, I would like to make this my last effort here on this topic.  Most of you understand what I have been saying, and those who do not will never be able to!
 
Tim Campbell

On[masked]:59, Tim Campbell wrote:


And btw, there is a difference between demonstrating cognitive bias and expressing an opinion based on conclusions made after evaluating evidence.  Especially opinions expressed after reading YOUR opinions.   YOUR own words and innuendos demonstrated that you are at least sympathetic to the conspiracy nuts, ( and there is sometimes a difference between a conspiracy theorist and a nut, though the line is sometimes blurry!) 
 
And apparently after spreading your own "don't trust the official conclusions until I have reviewed the data and been satisfied" innuendos and implied "questions", you really do not have any point at all. 
 
Now the events were all just unfortunate coincidences that may or may not have to do with a desired urban renewal project, or an insurance scam, or Al Quaeda or something unknown. 
 
Whatever. Better to be a skepdick than a conspiraloon. 
 
Tim Campbell
 
 
 







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