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RE: [humanism-174] Aha!

From: Marni H.
Sent on: Monday, August 6, 2007 12:13 AM

You’ll run into some disagreement on this one- but almost every other Christian or Jew that I know holds the same belief. As long as you wouldn’t support something, for example, like baiting black bears with a box full of stale donuts (watch out, you might bag a cop!) for a “trophy”, your view is cool by me.

But aren’t WE animals, Todd? I’m looking at one of my cats at this very moment- both her & I were born… we both knew the love of our mothers… we grew… both of us have two eyes… a nose… a heart… a brain… we eat… we sleep… we drink… we play… we poop… we pee… and we’re both going to DIE. Does your belief include other animals in the Afterlife? I debated with my Catholic friend over this awhile back- he said “Only Humans have souls. No animals in Heaven”. To that, I said “Then @#%* it… if I couldn’t be with my beloved pets in heaven, than I wouldn’t want to go there!!!

Mark

 


From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Todd Maher
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 11:32 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [humanism-174] Aha!

 

Good point. I agree that animal instincts, such as the aforementioned are very generous and are good. However, I believe that animals were put here for human use. In my belief, man has domain over beast. This doesn't mean that we are to torture them or have them fight to the death like that idiot Michael Vick, but rather God has entrusted in them the proper moral use of animals. It is up to our goodness to hold proper domain over animals without abusing this God given trust. To me, it is a test by God to assure that I treat animals with respect and compassion as He would treat me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
<[address removed]>Sent: Aug 5,[masked]:39 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [humanism-174] Aha!

Okay, in response to your comment about animal morality and survivialism, I feel compelled to disagree.  When I said that animals demonstrate morality, I was referring to the numerous examples of altruism, compassion, emotion and sacrifice within the animal world.  We have seen chimpanzees risking their own lives to save members of their groups from drowning.  We have observed dominant members of certain bird species giving up food to weaker birds.  We have seen meerkats standing sentry while others play or forage.

Hell, ask anyone who has a cat or dog if they think animals express moral behavior.  I'm willing to bet most will say yes, and will gladly provide examples.  I remember when I was younger that I was often sick, and would spend several days of each month home from school ill.  My dog, a typically energetic and active golden retriever, spent these days lying by my side, keeping me company and often refusing to go out for a walk while I was awake.  Whatever you may feel about your rat (a pretty vile creature to expect moral behavior from, imop...), I don't think you can deny that these behaviors have nothing behind them. 

My point was to illustrate that morality is prevalent everywhere, in all species, and not by any measure derivative of divine invention.  The thing that sets humans apart from animals is our ability to comprehend and interpret morality.
Knowing that, there should be no reason for anyone to assume that anyone else has no moral compass.  Not to say that's what you were implying, but that it is easy for us to assume those of different backgrounds, races, cultures, religions, classes, or even educational backgrounds to have a different or inadequate understanding of morality.  I feel that if we recognize that morality is a bit more clear-cut and universal than previously thought, it will aid in the understanding and communication between humanity as a whole.

Michael


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Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
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"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
 
 
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