RE: compassion (was: Re: [humanism-174] Aha!)

From: Marni T.
Sent on: Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:39 PM
And we're happy to have you with us, Becky!
I have a very good friend at work who is pretty much the quintessential
Catholic boy (of 48 years old!). I see my friend as a sort of "gage" of how
mainstream religious folk view the science/religion debate. This man has all
the silly Catholic guilt and certainly does take the bible seriously- but he
has no problem accepting the creation story as metaphor. In fact, most of
the mainstream believers that I know seem to have no problem reckoning
evolution with their respective religions. So why, in the 21st century, are
there still so many people that disregard just about all science because it
doesn't quite jibe with their holy books? This baffles me to no end...
Here's a true story about the only time in my life that I was REALLY ANGERED
by a Theist:
In 1996, my ex-wife & I were planning a trip to the Canadian Rockies... I
was telling my friend (same as above) about how I hoped to be able to see
the Burgess Shale, a treasure trove of ancient marine fossils now located at
11,000 ft. elevation in Yoho National Park. Also standing by was Don,
another co-worker. Don is a fundamentalist Christian... anyway, after
listening to me talk about the Burgess shale, Don chimed in with, "That
would be clear evidence of Noah's flood." I said, "What? But Don, the
Rockies are a young mountain chain and through geologic activity over the
course of millions of years, the earth was thrust up and..." But Don kept
insisting "Nope. Nope. Very clear evidence that the biblical flood was true"
& so on & so on. As we went back & forth, I could feel the veins in my
temples popping... my blood pressure probably went up to about 400! It did
become pretty much a shouting match.
I never did get to see that shale... Here's a link if anyone's interested.
Notice how this great discovery threw a little kink into some of Darwin's
theory- not a religious kink though.

 http://www.burges...­


Mark T.

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of
Becky Veverka
Sent: Wednesday, August 08,[masked]:06 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: compassion (was: Re: [humanism-174] Aha!)

I have never understood why the creation story can't be interpreted as a
metaphor. Is "a day" literally a day? How long was this day? 24 hours? For
the first 2 days, there was no sun to measure them, so how long were the
days? Could they have been 25 hours? 26? A year? A million years? Could the
word "day" simply symbolize an undefined length of time?

After all, in the first two books of Genesis, the order of creation are
different. One book gives a detailed order of what was created when, but the
second book of Genesis summarizes it in a completely different order. The
second book of Genesis also says that Adam was "formed from the Earth."
Sounds like evolution to me. Just slow it down.

Not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. Jesus did not ask his
friends to literally drink his blood. He was using blood as a symbol of his
coming willful sacrifice.

Happy to be on the list!
Becky

----- Original Message ----
From: Shane <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, August 8,[masked]:45:06 AM
Subject: RE: compassion (was: Re: [humanism-174] Aha!)


Hello Todd,

Evolution/Creationis­m can a hotly debated topic. I don't wish to make
enemies -- indeed I want to make friends! However this is the Freethought
meetup group so I feel compelled to respond:

I was once a firm believer in creationism. Ironically, I started changing my
mind when I was learning about it in order to refute it! I decided it was
best to look at the facts in an objective manner before I tried arguing
against it. I saw Christian friends of mine just reading anti-evolution
books for the sole purpose of gleaming information to be used in a debate. I
wanted an honest search for truth. I discovered that evolution just happens
to have a mountain of evidence supporting it including but not limited to:
fossil records (namely an almost complete record found in North America
which clearly shows the evolutionary history of the horse), hawthorn fly
speciation, antibiotic resistant bacteria, vestigial organs... The list goes
on and on. But I wouldn't.

Does it make a person immoral to believe in creationism? No. However, it's
might be intellectually dishonest if you are disregarding scientific
evidence because it might prove something that you don't want to be true.

- Shane

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Maher [mailto:[address removed]] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 08,[masked]:16 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: compassion (was: Re: [humanism-174] Aha!)

I personally don't believe in social Darwinism, or Darwin's theory of
evolution, but I don't believe it makes me an immoral or uncompassionate
person to believe in creationism.

>Todd,
>
>The critique I offered was not directed against you, nor at 
>Christianity specifically, but to any moral/ethical systems which 
>consist of rules, either prescriptions or proscriptions.  And, 
>generally speaking, all religions of the current epoch up until 
>existentialism do this in varying degrees, ignoring or discountenancing 
>humans' ability to make moral/ethical judgments.  The result is a 
>de-emphasis of understanding and a reliance on others to make these and
other judgments for us.
>
>It's good to hear that you fill in the gaps between the rules with your 
>interpretation of Christianity.  But you must know that many who hold 
>themselves up as Christians aren't so thoughtful, for example those 
>many who try to deny Darwin's theory of natural evolution yet fully 
>believe in and espouse social Darwinism.  It's a mistake, of course, to 
>evaluate any system of thought or beliefs solely by the words or deeds 
>of a small number of its adherents, but with the relatively large 
>number of ostensible Christians holding this self-contradictory view 
>and others equally abominable, I have to wonder about the maturity of 
>the religion itself as well as that of church leaders who seem to be silent
on them.
>
>
>
>On 08/06/[masked]:25 PM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>> Good answer, Ken. I think you have your views pretty well shaped, in my
humble opinion. Now, to say that Christianity didn't shape morals could be
correct. My interpretation is that Christianity began with Christ. There
were people before Christ, the man form, but not God, for in my religion, he
is the creator. He created us, so therefore our very essence of compassion
was created by Him. 
>> 
>> Now as to say that Christians follow a set of rules, and anything around
them done not out of compassion is ok, I'd disagree. It says nothing in the
ten commandments about throwing poop at someone's house, but I think the
moral essence of a Christian should move them against it. For trying to
outsmart the all knowing would be to denegrate Him. Once again, we're
mistakenly saying that man, the sinner, is the one that dictates Christian
morals. It is the grace of God that dictates morals, and instilled in us is
guidance of right and wrong, through love, compassion and caring for our
fellow man. I am going to say something very important right now.. Listen.
These are my views and I am not pushing them on anyone, however, if anyone
is moved by them, I am honored.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>> Sent: Aug 6,[masked]:35 PM
>>> To: [address removed]
>>> Subject: compassion (was: Re: [humanism-174] Aha!)
>>>
>>>
>>> Todd, Mark, and others,
>>>
>>> Buddhism typically starts out at what seems to be the heart of moral
>>> matters: compassion.  Beginners attending first classes and/or 
>>> reading introductory books on Buddhism are told about compassion, 
>>> that this entails relieving suffering, compassion's effect on karma, 
>>> and that we should have compassion for all sentient beings.  Though 
>>> it's one of those things which would be difficult, if not 
>>> impossible, to prove, it seems obvious that compassion for others is 
>>> the origin of the more formalized moral codes espoused by Moses, Christ,
Hammurabi and others.
>>> I.e., isn't compassion for others the founding principle of all 
>>> moral codes and what, in a more declarative fashion, they are all 
>>> trying to counsel?
>>>
>>> Even as a very young dude in confirmation classes I saw the 
>>> deficiency in a rules-based morality.  For instance, since there 
>>> wasn't any commandment against it, I could stick a wad of gum in 
>>> Pamela Kowalski's hair and still be a good Christian.  Nor was there 
>>> any commandment against sprinkling cayenne pepper in Beater 
>>> McButtsky's jockstrap.  So was that cool too?  Rules, it seemed, 
>>> were slippery and easy to get around.  Christianity would allow all 
>>> kinds of mischief and so being a Christian and being simply a good 
>>> person weren't necessarily the same thing.  The less rules-based 
>>> principle of compassion, while it left it to the individual to 
>>> assess particular acts, or perhaps because of this, includes better and
more of what happens in life.
>>>
>>> At the same time, it seemed a bit odd in intro Buddhism books and 
>>> classes that so much emphasis was put on compassion; it was as the 
>>> writers and speakers somehow believed people never heard of or 
>>> experienced it before.  Sure, it was worth mentioning, but who could 
>>> possibly not already understand and fully feel compassion, 
>>> especially those who bothered to pick up a book or attend a lecture on
Buddhism?
>>> Okay, maybe the intent of the extended discourses on compassion was 
>>> to chase off the devout hedonists who'd heard from somewhere some 
>>> tabloid headline about Tantric Buddhism and thought there'd be an 
>>> excellent orgy at the end of the class.  If not, why were they 
>>> making us suffer through all this talk about compassion?
>>>
>>> There are of course people in the world who seem not to fathom  
>>>compassi­on at all-- e.g., most murderers, rapists, and  
>>>neo-cons­ervatives, but even some college professors, Boy Scout 
>>>Masters,­  and musicians.  So perhaps it's a worthy endeavor to try to 
>>>wake up  people to it, to try to help them join the community of 
>>>human beings and  by whatever means which might be effective, 
>>>includin­g Christianity,  Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, or philosophy.  
>>>However,­ this isn't to say,  nor should we delude ourselves into 
>>>believin­g, that compassion for  others was unknown prior to religion 
>>>or philosophy.  Several months ago  an anthropologist on NPR told of 
>>>a prehistoric human's leg bone that  showed a severe break which had 
>>>mended.  The anthropologist concluded from this that someone had to 
>>>have helped the person during the long  time it took for the leg to 
>>>heal.  I tried to find reference to this on  the web, couldn't, but 
>>>did find  
>>><http://dmla.clan....­.
>>>htm#11>­,  an anthropologist's report of a dog with a broken leg that 
>>>was nursed  back to health, the evidence dating back 6000 years ago.  
>>>In talking  with another anthropologist, I learned that there are 
>>>quite a few known  instances indicative of compassion for others in 
>>>prehisto­ry.
>>>
>>> The point is that compassion didn't begin with Christianity or any 
>>> other monotheistic religion, at least there's no evidence for this, 
>>> no myths describing this, no reference to it in ancient texts, no 
>>> artifacts to support the supposition.  Personally, I see no reason 
>>> for not believing that humans weren't caring creatures from the very 
>>> beginning and so no reason to believe that organized religion is a 
>>> requirement for a more/ethical society.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/04/[masked]:26 PM somebody named Marni Tiborsky wrote:
>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> In answer to your question about what gives Atheists morals, if it 
>>>> isn't written in some book written by humans for humans, I believe, 
>>>> and I am not speaking for the group here, that my morals were 
>>>> taught to me by my parents, who are very wise indeed. Does this 
>>>> mean that they received their morals from a higher power, and just 
>>>> passed that knowledge onto me? I think not. I believe that as human 
>>>> beings, because of our intrinsic value, and our brains, which can 
>>>> think beyond what others tell us to think, we can reason that there 
>>>> is right and wrong. We decide for ourselves based on facts and the 
>>>> "doing unto others" rule, and we make our own decisions on whether to
do the right thing or the wrong thing.
>>>> Some people don't care about morals, and that is their prerogative. 
>>>> They have chosen to think of right and wrong differently. I have 
>>>> never, for one second, believed that some "one" is pulling my 
>>>> strings. To do so would be giving up my mind. I do not like to be 
>>>> led like a sheep, and I don't think other people should be led 
>>>> either. Since I believe in the science, not the fiction, of how the 
>>>> Earth was formed, and the universe, etc. etc., there cannot be a 
>>>> "lord", so therefore, there is no higher power with any hold on me 
>>>> or my life decisions. Why should people rely on books that are 
>>>> written basically to enslave and put fear in them? Why should they 
>>>> rely on these books at all? Of course, I would agree that the "ten 
>>>> commandments" per se are very good guidelines, but they were part 
>>>> of a story, and I don't need a story to live by. Please don't get 
>>>> me wrong, my favorite books are fiction - I enjoy Stephen King and 
>>>> Dean Koontz primarily, but I certainly wouldn't live my life based on
any moral code they would put in their stories. That would be ridiculous.
>>>> I'm sure there might be people out there who think Stephen King is 
>>>> a "god". More power to them. Why is it that people assume that 
>>>> because you have no religion and you don't cling to the bible, or 
>>>> whatever other book is out there, that you can't be a moral, 
>>>> upstanding citizen? I don't believe in the devil either, so there goes
the "devil worshipping"
>>>> theory right out the window as well.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> I definitely agree with your point that humans have the ability to 
>>>> either save or destroy. However, I don't believe that humans are 
>>>> any more valuable on this planet, simply by being, than a 
>>>> butterfly. Without the help of the butterfly and the bee, we 
>>>> wouldn't survive. Intrinsic value or not, if a small creature like 
>>>> the aforementioned, can create what we need to survive, doesn't that
mean it has a moral code as well?
>>>> I mean, a bee can certainly sting you. Does that mean the bee is evil?
>>>> Or is it just stinging you because you caused it to defend itself 
>>>> against attack? Do bees and butterflies have moral codes? Does any 
>>>> other animal on this planet have a moral code besides humans? I think
they do.
>>>> I think that by definition, any living creature on this Earth can 
>>>> be "moral". According to the very definition of moral, it is so 
>>>> varied and based on so many circumstances, that one could argue for 
>>>> any given situation that an animal is presented with, that it makes 
>>>> moral decisions based on its environment and the other animals 
>>>> involved. Also, as far as humans go, one person's morality may be
another person's sin.
>>>> Interesting thought. So, if that's the case, and one goes by one 
>>>> book to shape all of his/her moral behavior, there might be a very 
>>>> good possibility that I could call that individual amoral, simply 
>>>> because I don't believe in that person's code of conduct, and I 
>>>> don't believe in the book from which he/she received morality.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I guess I've talked enough. Please know that I respect the fact 
>>>> that you have shared with us your belief system.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>
>>>> Marni
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­-------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> *From:* [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] 
>>>> *On Behalf Of *Todd Maher
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 04,[masked]:39 PM
>>>> *To:* [address removed]
>>>> *Subject:* RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Hey, Mark,
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you were able to look through the Mises website. I work at 
>>>> a bank, and much like yourself, I am more driven by comfort than 
>>>> money. I like money, but the things I can buy with it is outweighed 
>>>> by the time I would have to invest.
>>>>
>>>> Point of interest on whether you are a good capitalist or not... I 
>>>> agree that if you are lending out your equipment to work sound for 
>>>> a gig, there should be something taken off of the top for equipment 
>>>> depreciation, risk of damage, and general wear and tear to recover 
>>>> the purchase price of the equipment. However, as long as the 
>>>> business can maintain itself and those working in the business are 
>>>> happy, there is nothing wrong with that. However, in order to 
>>>> continue operating the business, money has to be made to support the
lives of those working.
>>>>
>>>> And on to Religion...
>>>>
>>>> I would have to say that humans have more intrinsic value than a 
>>>> butterfly, simply for the fact that we have the ability to help or 
>>>> harm the world exponentially more than any other animal. Humans 
>>>> developed nuclear weapons, nerve gas, biochemical warfare, etc. A 
>>>> butterfly cannot do such massively destructive things. Humans have 
>>>> also created hospitals, charities, orphanages and political action 
>>>> committees, which are positive things that a butterfly would be 
>>>> unable to manifest. That on its face would indicate that the fact 
>>>> that we have complex brains and the bodies to be directed by them, 
>>>> would make us more intrinsically valuable. I would hire a human to 
>>>> do the sound for my wedding, not a butterfly.
>>>>
>>>> I think that your philosophy is fine if it works for you. Mine 
>>>> works well for me. I try to be fearful of judgment of the Lord, but 
>>>> I often make mistakes. I guess  you can say that He is my 
>>>> conscience. In the case of atheism, what code do atheists use of what
is right or wrong?
>>>> The Bible, the Koran, the Talmud or whatever religion you choose 
>>>> have been the guiding morals of individuals in their respective
regions.
>>>> Where is the root of right and wrong for atheists? I'm assuming 
>>>> atheism has been around for a long time, but I don't know their source
of morals.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>     From: Marni Tiborsky
>>>>     Sent: Aug 4,[masked]:32 AM
>>>>     To: [address removed]
>>>>     Subject: RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Todd,
>>>>
>>>>     I checked out the Mises site... fascinating and very informative. A
>>>>     lot of it is over my head at this point- but I intend to
investigate
>>>>     further. A good deal of philosophy involved here- it may take
awhile
>>>>     for me to fully digest it. I was wondering, are you a businessman?
I
>>>>     had my own live sound business for several years- I actually was
>>>>     quite good at what I did, and had some great sound technicians
>>>>     working with me. Overall, I would say the business was a success-
>>>>     however, I can't say I was a good businessman; for one thing, I've
>>>>     never been that much of a monetarily-driven person- I've always
been
>>>>     more comfort-driven than anything else. Secondly, I was WAY too
fair
>>>>     with my helpers- I would usually pay them the full cut for any
>>>>     "gig", whereas any other "boss" in the same situation would take a
>>>>     cut off the top if he or she owned the equipment used, etc. Then I
>>>>     met Marni, and wanted to spend more time with her- so I began
>>>>     farming out my contracts. Soon after, Marni & I were engaged- and I
>>>>     desired to return to a "regular" job, so I wouldn't have to work
>>>>     every single weekend. By the time we were married in June of '04,
my
>>>>     sound business had lapsed into oblivion. So I guess I'm not the
>>>>     world's greatest capitalist, ay?
>>>>
>>>>     Back to the matter of religion (or lack thereof),
>>>>
>>>>     I don't feel as if I was "put here" at all. I see myself as an
>>>>     organism inhabiting planet Earth, an organism with a complex brain.
>>>>     I feel that I have no more intrinsic value to the Universe than
say,
>>>>     a butterfly. And I'm fine with that! Also, since I don't believe in
>>>>     souls & the afterlife, or heaven or hell for that matter, I have no
>>>>     fear of "judgment"- I'm fine with all that also. I'm not sure
>>>>     whether this is a classic atheist's view of oneself or not, but
>>>>     these are my "beliefs" in a nutshell.
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     Mark
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­-------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>>     *From:* [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]]
*On
>>>>     Behalf Of *Todd Maher
>>>>     *Sent:* Friday, August 03,[masked]:36 AM
>>>>     *To:* [address removed]
>>>>     *Subject:* RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     The Corporatism in america has no place in the free markets.
>>>>     Government law protects Corporations from feeling any real pain.
>>>>     This is government protectionism that allows for this to occur. I
>>>>     would recommend a great thinker from the Austrian school of
>>>>     Economics, Ludwig Von Mises, to explain further. Going to his
>>>>     website www.mises.org <http://www.mises....;­, we will be able to
>>>>     listen to other free market capitalists like myself show how
>>>>     government interference, corporate welfare (government sponsored),
>>>>     supposed "free-trade" agreements are undermining the Constitution
>>>>     and Bill of Rights. Also, it'd be worthwhile to look at the role
the
>>>>     United Nations and their treaties expel certain constitutional
>>>>     freedoms we have. I will debate this point, because it'll hopefully
>>>>     make me a sharper individual.
>>>>
>>>>     Government Religions and most organized religions are the victim of
>>>>     any large organizetion- power corruption, or the power attracting
>>>>     the corruptible. Should we trust man, a sinner, to uphold God's law
>>>>     and issue judgment upon us? I think not. That is His job and His
job
>>>>     alone. However, if anyone does anything to endanger my life,
liberty
>>>>     or property, to the gallows with them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>         From: Marni Tiborsky
>>>>         Sent: Aug 3,[masked]:51 AM
>>>>         To: [address removed]
>>>>         Subject: RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         Todd,
>>>>
>>>>         I must say that I agree with your politics! I think we all
know,
>>>>         deep down, that a fundamental change is needed. The "system" is
>>>>         in shambles. Freedom, as the Founding Fathers had intended, has
>>>>         been slowly slipping away for 20+ years now.
>>>>
>>>>         I don't think that the government is the sole bad guy though-
is
>>>>         the "free" market really free? Corporate entities are now
>>>>         basically writing OUR laws. It's capitalism run amok. Our
>>>>         despotic administration, most of congress, and most of their
>>>>         political cronies LOVE this... they make lots & lots of money,
>>>>         while the common man continues to get screwed in more and more
>>>>         ways. Some people who are more well-to-do might love
>>>>         corporate-controlled­ government too- especially the ones who
>>>>         have vested interests in corporations like Exxon Mobil,
>>>>         Halliburton, Dyncorp, big pharmacuticals, Wal-Mart, etc.....
>>>>
>>>>         I feel that your statement "religion doesn't cause wars,
>>>>         government uses religion to create wars" is true in SOME cases-
>>>>         however, I believe that religion, especially organized
religion,
>>>>         and worse yet, religion AS government, has caused countless
wars
>>>>         and will continue to do so, barring some sort of major "human
>>>>         enlightenment".
>>>>
>>>>         Sorry, can't finish this email tonight- very tired!
>>>>
>>>>         MARK T.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­-------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>>         *From:* [address removed]
[mailto:[address removed]]
>>>>         *On Behalf Of *Todd Maher
>>>>         *Sent:* Thursday, August 02,[masked]:29 AM
>>>>         *To:* [address removed]
>>>>         *Subject:* RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         I would not call another's views blasphemous, for I am not He
>>>>         who judges (or at least I'm not supposed to be). The universal
>>>>         truth that I've been moving toward are that we are put here as
a
>>>>         test to see how badly we can mess up. I have probably messed up
>>>>         more than most, but I am optimistic that I will be prepared for
>>>>         death when my time comes.
>>>>
>>>>         Do you think about why we think what we do? For example, the
>>>>         whole political propaganda paradigm (right vs. left) and why
>>>>         they are so eager to get us to pick sides? Why we are driven to
>>>>         consume that which we don't need, those things which enslave us
>>>>         to earn the right to own them? I am a free-market, freedom
>>>>         loving individual who believes that government and individuals
>>>>         have been in a struggle from the beginning of time, tugging and
>>>>         pulling (individuals wanting freedom, government pulling us
into
>>>>         despotism through rhetoric and propaganda.) Religion doesn't
>>>>         cause wars, government uses religion to create wars, because it
>>>>         burns at the very souls of man. (They sure know how to press
our
>>>>         buttons.) Well, I'll respond to any questions or comments I get
>>>>         soon.
>>>>
>>>>         Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             -----Original Message-----
>>>>             From: Marni Tiborsky
>>>>             Sent: Aug 2,[masked]:19 AM
>>>>             To: [address removed]
>>>>             Subject: RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Todd,
>>>>
>>>>             If you click on the "messages" tab on our group meetup
site,
>>>>             you can see ALL the dialogue that's gone on from day one.
>>>>             It's a good way to see what some of our more active members
>>>>             are like. The majority of us are indeed Atheists &
>>>>             Agnostics- some of the dialogue would probably be
considered
>>>>             blasphemy by the very religious. However, for a
Freethinker,
>>>>             is there such a thing as blasphemy? I think not!
>>>>
>>>>             We're not looking to convert anyone... and we certainly
aren't
>>>>             looking for anyone to try and convert us. We're all
>>>>             searching for answers to the universal questions, are we
not?
>>>>
>>>>             We look forward to your input...
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             Mark
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             
>>>> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­-------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>>             *From:* [address removed]
>>>>             [mailto:[address removed]] *On Behalf Of *Todd Maher
>>>>             *Sent:* Wednesday, August 01,[masked]:55 PM
>>>>             *To:* [address removed]
>>>>             *Subject:* RE: [humanism-174] Aha!
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             That's cool. Us Libertarians believe that people should
>>>>             worship how they please. I think it's the point of free
>>>>             thinking. Also, we believe that if a group wants to be
>>>>             exclusive, they should be able to keep their group the way
>>>>             they wish.
>>>>
>>>>             Regarding your Brahman question, my wife is sleeping right
>>>>             now. We're expecting late December/ early January. I am
only
>>>>             as familiar with Buddhism as she has taught me.
>>>>
>>>>             When I discuss freethinking ideas, mine are usually along
my
>>>>             religious dialogue or my political views, which some call
>>>>             radical, others call extreme. Me, I call them founding
>>>>             father material. Ok, now that I am done being full of
>>>>             myself, we can move on to topic. Sorry for not adding to
the
>>>>             conversation, but it was nice to see some of the back and
>>>>             forth amongst the group.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>
>>>>             Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>
>>>>            [masked]
>>>>
>>>>            [masked]
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man,
and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join
him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             ____________________­____________________­
>>>>
>>>>             PeoplePC Online
>>>>
>>>>             A better way to Internet
>>>>
>>>>             http://www.people...­
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             --
>>>>             Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be
>>>>             sent to **everyone** on this mailing list
>>>>             ([address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>             This message was sent by Todd Maher
>>>>             ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>             To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member
profile
>>>>             <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>             To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings,
>>>>             click here <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>             Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>             632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             --
>>>>             Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be
>>>>             sent to **everyone** on this mailing list
>>>>             ([address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>             This message was sent by Marni Tiborsky
>>>>             ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>             To learn more about Marni Tiborsky, visit his/her member
>>>>             profile <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>             To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings,
>>>>             click here <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>             Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>             632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>
>>>>         Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>
>>>>        [masked]
>>>>
>>>>        [masked]
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and
brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         ____________________­____________________­
>>>>
>>>>         PeoplePC Online
>>>>
>>>>         A better way to Internet
>>>>
>>>>         http://www.people...­
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         --
>>>>         Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be sent
>>>>         to **everyone** on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>>         <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>         This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed])
>>>>         from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>         To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile
>>>>         <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>         To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click
>>>>         here <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>         Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>         632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         --
>>>>         Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be sent
>>>>         to **everyone** on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>>         <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>         This message was sent by Marni Tiborsky ([address removed])
>>>>         from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>         To learn more about Marni Tiborsky, visit his/her member
profile
>>>>         <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>         To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click
>>>>         here <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>         Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>         632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>
>>>>     Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>
>>>>    [masked]
>>>>
>>>>    [masked]
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and
brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     ____________________­____________________­
>>>>
>>>>     PeoplePC Online
>>>>
>>>>     A better way to Internet
>>>>
>>>>     http://www.people...­
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be sent to
>>>>     **everyone** on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>>     <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>     This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from
>>>>     The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>     To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile
>>>>     <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>     To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here
>>>>     <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>     Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>     632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be sent to
>>>>     **everyone** on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>>     <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>     This message was sent by Marni Tiborsky ([address removed]) from
>>>>     The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>     To learn more about Marni Tiborsky, visit his/her member profile
>>>>     <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>>     To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here
>>>>     <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>>     Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>     632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>
>>>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>
>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>
>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,
and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then
it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> ____________________­____________________­
>>>>
>>>> PeoplePC Online
>>>>
>>>> A better way to Internet
>>>>
>>>> http://www.people...­
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Please Note: If you hit "**REPLY**", your message will be sent to
>>>> **everyone** on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>> <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from 
>>>> The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile 
>>>> <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here 
>>>> <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to
>>>> *everyone* on this mailing list ([address removed]
>>>> <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>> This message was sent by Marni Tiborsky ([address removed]) from 
>>>> The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>> To learn more about Marni Tiborsky, visit his/her member profile 
>>>> <http://humanism.m...;­
>>>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here 
>>>> <http://www.meetup...;­
>>>>
>>>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to 
>>> everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was
sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>> To learn more about ken, visit his/her member profile: 
>>> http://humanism.m...­
>>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: 
>>> http://www.meetup...­
>>>
>>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>[masked]
>>[masked]
>> 
>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and
hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it
costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>> 
>> 
>> ____________________­____________________­
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.people...­
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to 
>> everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was
sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland
Freethinkers.
>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: 
>> http://humanism.m...­
>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: 
>> http://www.meetup...­
>> 
>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>> 
>
>
>
>
>--
>Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone 
>on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was sent by ken
([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>To learn more about ken, visit his/her member profile: 
>http://humanism.m...­
>To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: 
>http://www.meetup...­
>
>Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>


Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
[masked]
[masked]

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and
hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it
costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904


____________________­____________________­
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.people...­



--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was sent by Todd
Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile:
http://humanism.m...­
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here:
http://www.meetup...­

Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA



--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Shane ([address removed]) from The Cleveland
Freethinkers.
To learn more about Shane, visit his/her member profile:
http://humanism.m...­
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here:
http://www.meetup...­

Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA


       
____________________­____________________­____________________­________________
________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
http://searchmark...­




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Becky Veverka ([address removed]) from The
Cleveland Freethinkers.
To learn more about Becky Veverka, visit his/her member profile:
http://humanism.m...­
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here:
http://www.meetup...­

Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA



Our Sponsors

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy