Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

From: Becky V.
Sent on: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:04 AM
And a Muslim could argue that they don't want their tax money spent on pork chops in the public school lunchroom. But they don't. They brown bag it. I get your point. You don't want something going into your body (be it through the mouth or through the ears) that goes against your moral beliefs, block it out.

I mention that I'm a feminist because in an earlier email you mentioned that "feminazis" deserved to be judged. With all the negativity and just plain misinformation that's surrounded the word "feminist" in recent years, I think you're missing the true definition of a word:

Quoth the wiki: "Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of both sexes."

Equality. Not superiority. If you also believe in equality of the sexes that, by definition, makes you a feminist.

BV

----- Original Message ----
From: Todd Maher <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:54:16 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

Becky, you may have missed my point  earlier about taxation that funds public schools. I don't think I should be forced to pay for the teaching of evolution if it conflicts with my religious beliefs. I was taught neither creationism nor evolution in public school. This is ideal. If parents want their kids to learn evolution or creationism, they should use private funds, not forced, barrel of a gun taxes. Besides, I don't know if you have seen the drugs that pharmacists and doctors are pushing on the kids nowadays (ritalin, adavan, risperdal, the series of mercury induced vaccines, etc), but I hope that my child doesn't grow up to practice western medicine. Too much blood on his/her hands.

Now, when you mention that you are a feminist, how so? In that you believe that women are superior to men? I believe that all people are equal under law, unequal under their works and abilities. I couldn't be considered a chauvanist, but rather someone that thinks any sex is superior over another (aside group)... hahaha... Well, anyhow. just an interrogative for you that may lead to another free thinking exchange.


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Veverka
Sent: Aug 10,[masked]:41 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

You're talking about forcing beliefs. Just like a Muslim can push a plate of pork chops away, so can a fundie Christian kid plug up his ears in science class. I just hope he never becomes a doctor, a biologist, a chemist, a geneticist, a physicist, a pharmacist, or anything else that will both advance and benefit mankind in the fields of science.

If you want to disbelieve evolution so easily and so out of hand, look into what it actually is instead of just dismissing it as something you simply don't want to believe. I don't want to believe I need to pay almost $3 a gallon for gas but... alas. Good place to start is talkorigins.org. Happy reading!

Your label happy atheist feminist,
 BV

----- Original Message ----
From: Todd Maher <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, August 10,[masked]:32:48 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

I agree with you, Becky. A lot of spiritual beliefs do seem silly and not reality. That's why they are just our own personal beliefs. I don't think you got my metaphor, though. I never said that the pork was being shoved down Muslims' throats, I was saying forcing a Christian to study the denial of the Bible's creation history would liken itself to something that would be against their will, such as Muslims and pork. Sometimes I believe that nowadays, it is more rare to have your beliefs and stick to your convictions, instead of a scientist saying "there's a consensus in the scientific community that says there's global warming". and everyone abandoning their beliefs based on quack science. I'd have to study science for a long time to convince myself there is no God, and if I die studying it and not finding out, what have I done with my life? By the way, on the global warming thing, I never knew that a consensus meant something was so...


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Veverka
Sent: Aug 10,[masked]:25 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

No one is forcing pork down the throats of Muslim children's throats in public school. What IDers argue for is akin to teaching children that pork doesn't exist.

Which is both silly and conflicts with reality. Like a lot of spiritual beliefs.

BV

----- Original Message ----
From: Todd Maher <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, August 9,[masked]:17:54 PM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

Michael,

This following statement isn't taking into consideration personal choice:

"we live in a society in which the debate over the teaching of Evolution is dominated by scientifically retarded religious zealots; people who are so inured in their own dogmas they willingly corrupt the very definition and methods of science to support their beliefs

We have to remember something: If Muslims don't want their kids eating pork, the children shouldn't be forced to in the absence of their parents. We also shouldn't pay taxes to support a program that would make Muslim children eat pork. If I don't want my children to be enrolled in the DARE program in school, I shouldn't have to send them. And to fully prove the point, I shouldn't be forced to pay taxes to misteach children about the dangers of drugs. If they started teaching sexual education in kintergarten, I probably would be wise not to support such an activity. We are deciding that we know what's best to teach parents' children. Even though some of us in this group think we're enlightened above others, it doesn't give them the right to teach items that conflict with the core of our religious beliefs. I hope I've cleared up some things. I am not about people being able to study evolution, I just don't think that it'd be in my best spiritual interest to advocate forcing people to pay taxes to have teachers teach it to children.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Aug 9,[masked]:48 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

Todd and Ken,

I consider Charles' criticism to be valid for three reasons;
  • One, the statement, "I do not believe in evolution." is an assertion.  It requires the person saying it to have at the very least an understanding of what Evolution entails, what role it plays in both society, religion, and science, as well as knowing the ramifications of making such a statement.  Making such an assertion challenges the viewpoint of anyone who does believe in the Theory of Evolution, and does not exempt the individual from being challenged in kind.
  • Two, the Theory of Evolution is the culmination of centuries of the scientific efforts to piece together the great biological, geographic, astronomical, and paleological mysteries of our planet into a (if not simple and gratifying explanation) comprehensive theory on how we and everything around us got here.  To not "believe" in the Theory, it is expected that a rational minded person must have a reason for not believing.  I, and I believe Charles as well, expect that any person who doubts or disbelieves in Evolution would do so for a far greater reason than their own religious inclinations.
  • Three, we live in a society in which the debate over the teaching of Evolution is dominated by scientifically retarded religious zealots; people who are so inured in their own dogmas they willingly corrupt the very definition and methods of science to support their beliefs.  It is no stretch of the imagination to predict the catastrophic effect their success would have on science and rational thought in this nation.  I will argue that the very nature of science demands any person disbelieving in the Theory should have solid explanation for doing so.  We do not have the luxury of passively ignoring that belief when the repercussions are so great.

Now, with all that said, I should say that their is a distinction between ones belief or lack thereof in Evolution, and the many in which they live their lives.  I do not for on second assert that any person can be defined as either good or bad, moral or immoral, compassionate or heartless, or intelligent or stupid.  The Theory plays a minor role in the lives of most people, regardless of their belief in it. 

What I do believe is that the Theory of Evolution should be treated with the same respect, dignity, and understanding as any theological belief of creation demands.

Michael


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