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Re: [humanism-174] US Stamps and the war on Christmas

From: Joanna
Sent on: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:13 PM
Agreed. Susan, you were more than cordial in this exchange, but you were the only one interested in dialogue.

I love this: "And further, being inclusive of others is not persecuting you. It's simply being inclusive of others too. Simply acknowledging that there are non-Christians in our wonderful and diverse country is not an attack. It's a celebration of our wonderfulness and the specialness that is America."

I wish everyone could see things this way.

Joanna

 

 
 
 
In Loving Memory of SSG Edward W. Carman
Nov. 1976-Apr.2004 - US Army, 2/12 Cavalry


From: Conrad Bruton <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, November 22,[masked]:41 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] US Stamps and the war on Christmas

There was way too much energy put into this exchange.This guy is an idiot.Let him stay that way.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: Susan Haywood <[address removed]>
Sender: [address removed]
Date: Fri, 22 Nov[masked]:13:03 -0500
To: <[address removed]>
ReplyTo: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] US Stamps and the war on Christmas

Here is a cleaner copy:


Susan Haywood I looked at the USPS online store, and they are selling those three stamps above. BUT
they are also selling a stamp named Virgin and Child by Jan Gossaert with a picture of a baby Jesus and Mary, AND they are selling a stamp called Holy Family with a s...See More
 
New Stamps - The Postal Store @ USPS.com
store.usps.com
Find the new stamps issued by the U.S. Postal Service. Stamps are released throughout the year and feature a variety people, places, and things.
about an hour ago · Like · Remove Preview
 
Greg Maschok So why no mention of "Christmas"? Would that be so hard?
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Actually, both of those very religious stamps do say Christmas on them.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok Thank you for correcting me! I will delete my misleading post as soon as you acknowledge this post.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood  We are all Americans. I'm am on the left, but i think some of the hype is misinformation because I'm not your enemy.
about an hour ago · Like · 2
 
Greg Maschok On second thought, I will let the post stand (along with your comments). The 'mailer' did not include the 'Christmas' stamps, although the website does offer them. Why couldn't the 'mailer' give 'Christmas' the same prominence as the other two religious holiday names?
Even so, thank you for further informing me on this matter.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Well, here is what I think. They only have so much room. Christmas is both a secular and a religious holiday (It's secular to me). It's more complicated and prevalent. Perhaps that was a way of including as many people and views as possible? Anyway, i don't think it was meant to be an attack at all. They only have one stamp for each of the other holidays, but they have 3 stamps for Christmas. And those stamps have very specific imagery. Even though I don't call myself a Christian, I think they are quite beautiful. And I like the gingerbread house.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Clarification: I think both the religiious stamps are beautiful, and I also like the gingerbread house.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood They also have a poinsetta stamp, and while that is rather secular, it also is an American symbol of Christmas and I think that's what it brings to everyone's mind. So that's 4 stamps for the prevalent holiday.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok No need to shy away from the word:
"The majority of Americans (73–80%) identify themselves as Christians and about 15–20% have no religious affiliation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
 
Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Religion in the United States is characterized by a diversity of religious belie...
See More
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood But they didn't shy away from it. Christmas is still the predominant message.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood And think about this angle. Christmas actually needs no identifier. We see the images, we know. Right? Sometimes, the lack of need for introduction speaks louder than an introduction. It is so ingrained in our culture, that we just know. Would a picture of Jesus need a tag line? Can you take comfort in that knowledge that it isn't even necessary?
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok I disagree. Choosing Gingerbread houses over using the word Christmas alongside the names of two other religious holidays was a gaff at best.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Well, if you are looking for offense, you will definitely find it. There is always something.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok If not necessary, they why the names on the other two stamps?
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Because those ARE necessary! LOL. I wouldn't understand them without an identifier. Christmas is the rock star here---that's what I'm trying to say.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood And further, being inclusive of others is not persecuting you. It's simply being inclusive of others too. Simply acknowledging that there are non-Christians in our wonderful and diverse country is not an attack. It's a celebration of our wonderfulness and the specialness that is America.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok So why not 'include' the word 'Christmas' alongside the other religious holidays mentioned?
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood As I said, Greg, if you want to find offense, you will. Broaden the lens a bit, and another story is told.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok But when the 'lens' excludes the majority as the mailer did, the picture becomes even more distorted.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood And the thing that perplexes me, if I may say, is this readiness to take offense and get angry works against the spirit of all three holidays. This is a time when many people should be drawn together by similar feelings, even if understandings are different, and instead we inject divisions into the conversation. Christians by far are the majority here. They can afford to offer a little grace and goodwill over what really is something minor. It's Christmas! I'm not a Christian, but I must say, I just can't see Jesus getting caught up in a detail like this, especially if he had the power of the majority.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood It didn't exclude you. It took a Christmas image that spoke to a broader Christmas audience.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok But is not the SINGLE offense that offends... It is the well documented PATTERN of offenses that is the point.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay, Greg. Christians still have the power here. I should know, since I'm in a less powerful group. What I find is any attempt to include me in the American story (secular) is met with hostility. I can assure you that Christmas and Christianity are not going anywhere---but there are others. Sometimes, perhaps during a time when we should feel united like during winter holidays, we get included.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok One might 'turn the other cheek' the first time or even a few times, but when it happens repeatedly and incessantly, a response is both warranted and necessary.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay. So the fighting goes on. I know my bible very well. I still can't see Jesus doing any of this. All the sacrifice and teaching recorded, and it comes down to things like stamps and happy holidays. The gnats. Perhaps that is why he did not mix the political and the spiritual---hiding when they came to make him king---because this could be forseen.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok The Constitution protects us ALL (even the non secular) equally. NOTHING I said inferred that non secular people NOT be included.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok Small things DO matter and should not be dismissed or ignored:
Matthew 13:31-32 He told them another parable; “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok Luke 16:10 “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.
about an hour ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay. there is always a scripture. Personally, and take it for what it's worth, I think they were addressing issues of faith, not stamps and such.
about an hour ago · Like · 1
 
Greg Maschok Neither a 'mustard seed' nor a 'gingerbread house' are 'issues of faith'. Yet in this context they both matter greatly.
47 minutes ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay. You are being persecuted and disenfranchised. It is death by a thousand cuts. The smallest slight, or more likely simply unintentional whatever is of the utmost importance. Nothing can be overlooked or gracefully accepted as just life, judgement, or different perspective, but all things have an ulterior motive. Jesus taught us to look hard for all perceived insults, and to get angry, and to address them, and this would draw people to the Kingdom of God. Four Christmas stamps are not enough. Two very religious stamps are not enough. The thing that matters most here, and the thing worth causing hostility and division among our ranks, is the wrong stamp was chosen for a poster. Churches are tax exempt. Obama will have prayer meetings. A Christmas tree will go up on the White House lawn. Christians are WELL represented in our legislature. But this thing, this battle, must be addressed.
40 minutes ago · Like
 
Greg Maschok Where we do not speak out against injustice, we enable it.
37 minutes ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Injustice?
37 minutes ago · Like
 
Susan Haywood Okay.

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Haywood <[address removed]>
To: humanism-174 <[address removed]>
Sent: Fri, Nov 22,[masked]:04 am
Subject: [humanism-174] US Stamps and the war on Christmas

So, I try not to do this, but I did it. An persecuted Christian of FB posted the horrible truth that the US postal service made a Kwanzaa stamp, a Hannakah stamp, and ============== a gingerbread stamp. He is tired, oh so tired, of the government, and more specifically, the LEFT'S attack on Christmas.

So I went to the USPS website and found that there were 4 Christmas stamps, two of which were extremely religious. So he counters with---well what's wrong with the WORD Christmas. Why won't they use it (paraphrasing). Actually, I point out, Christmas is written on the two religious stamps. But then---WHY WASN'T ONE OF THE RELIGIOUS ONES ON THE POSTER? The USPS sent out a flyer type thing and didn't put a religious stamp on the poster.

Here is the discussion. I think I was pretty nice.







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Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Susan Haywood ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Conrad Bruton ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

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