Re: Behold the Righteous (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories)

From: ken
Sent on: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 4:31 PM
On 08/14/[masked]:26 PM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
> That was a response to a previous email that inferred that alternative
> medicine has no place in Christianity. This was a strict religious
> question, with a strict religious response. Let's take the target off
> my back and start finding the truth.

Todd, you're not remembering correctly at all.  (Big surprise.)  It was
not a religious question at all, strict or otherwise.  Maude was talking
about doctors and prescribing pharmaceuticals to kids.  She wasn't
presenting any kind of religious argument.  I wrote the following reply
from me to Maude which, as you can see (I hope), contains nothing
remotely religious:

> Maybe Todd was talking about pharmaceutical companies, as they do play
> a big role in pushing drugs on patients-- via complicit doctors of
> course.
> Big Pharma (as a friend of mine refers to them) also advertises their
> drugs on TV and elsewhere, telling consumers to specifically "ask to
> doctor for The Purple Pill!"  As the bills coming out of Congress
> repeatedly show, as FEC records confirm, and as Sicko points out, Big
> Pharma have a stranglehold on our Federal government and are a major
> reason why we have such expensive healthcare in this country.
>
> As an aside to Todd, I always took the New Age movement to include
> so-called "alternative medicine"; I've been using alternative medical
> methods for a long time and have found that they're oftentimes more
> effective than standard, mainstream, Big-Pharma-endorsed
> pharmaceutical/medic­al practices... and always less expensive, even
> after insurance.  So maybe, Todd, you might find at least this one
> aspect of the New Age movement not so sinister.  (?)

Your reply was to *make it* into a religious issue.  See the paragraph
just below, right under "Do you remember writing this?"  Clearly, you're
the one, and the only one, who brought (your) religion into the
conversation.  The entire thread begins at the way down at the bottom of
this email, if anyone wants to view it.  Look for yourself.  You'll see
Maude's, my, and your comments in their original order.  Then tell us
what "the truth" is.

And your "target on my back" comment... that's just to absolve yourself
and blame others, right?  I thought you said they only did that down in
the ghetto.

> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>> Sent: Aug 14,[masked]:40 AM
>> To: [address removed]
>> Subject: Re: Behold the Righteous (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories)
>>
>>
>> Again, if you don't want "personal" comments made, then you shouldn't
>> resort to using the "personal" as evidence, i.e., cite God or
>> Christianity as a reason for or evidence of something.  I thought this
>> was clear in the first two paragraphs of my email below.  What there do
>> you not understand?
>>
>> Do you remember writing this?
>>
>> On 08/12/[masked]:51 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>> There is nothing "new age" about alternative medicine. It all got
>>> screwed up and the decline of the family doctor occurred when the
>>> antiboitics movement began to occur. Alternative medicine is the most in
>>> line with my faith than any. God said that the land he hath created
>>> provideth all that ye need. It didn't say that a man would need to
>>> deceive you with poisons to make you think you'll feel better, then
>>> screw you with the bill. Common misconception. Nothing new age about it,
>>> totally pure.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/14/[masked]:36 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>> Ken, you are thinking you are like way above me or something. I have a
>> double major in Finance and Economics. I have been an amateur student of
>> history for about 6 years now. I have graduate coursework completed in
>> Finance, but I hate working for the bank, so I couldn't stand to learn
>> more meaningless statistics. I work at a bank as an analyst and have
>> done relatively well. I will never serve in the military, nor vow to
>> military conscription, since it has no place in a truly free country.
>> You do seem in your writing to be more condescending than productive, so
>> maybe we should just stay on the subjects and not get too personal. I
>> know nothing of your background and don't attempt to guess if you were a
>> high school drop out, a jarhead, or illiterate to deep thinking books.
>> The fact is we are both intelligent, we just read different books. I can
>> probably learn more from you than someone who read the same stuff that I
>> read. It's just a shame that we can't discuss issues without getting
>> personal.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>> Sent: Aug 13,[masked]:40 PM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: Re: Behold the Righteous (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Todd, I don't have a problem.  You're entitled to your faith and your
>>>> views.  Despite your moaning, no one here has said otherwise.  Nor do
>>>> you have to explain them if you don't want to.  You've already said you
>>>> don't want to talk about your faith.  But then you claim the right to
>>>> cite your faith as evidence of your views.  Well, that's really
>>>> convenient for you.  You get to say your faith is evidence, but evidence
>>>> which no one can question.  What you apparently can't fathom is that
>>>> unless evidence can be examined, it's not evidence at all.
>>>>
>>>> Also, you bring your faith into the conversation, then, when questioned
>>>> about it (to see if it is at all evidence for anything), you make the
>>>> accusation that we're attacking your faith.  If you don't want questions
>>>> asked about your faith, then don't cite it as evidence.
>>>>
>>>> By "goofy" I mean: wildly contrary to common sense and/or accepted and
>>>> well documented wisdom, leading to absurd conclusions, incoherently
>>>> explained, containing unsupported leaps in reasoning, self-serving,
>>>> mutable, and unsupported by evidence.  "Goofy" is just easier to type.
>>>>
>>>> Of course you don't see your own views as goofy.  If you did, you
>>>> probably wouldn't reveal them to others... which you already have.  I
>>>> don't know what to tell you, Todd... maybe a course in logic and another
>>>> in expository writing would help.  Maybe reading some good, but not too
>>>> complex expository writing would help.  If I think of or find something
>>>> appropriate, would you actually take a stab at reading it?
>>>>
>>>> Did you graduate from high school?  What kind of work do you do?  I get
>>>> the sense that you spent time in the military... did you?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08/13/[masked]:22 PM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­ Dude, what's your problem? I have faith that I can't prove through the
>>>>>­ scientific method. Therefore, my assertions are "goofy". Ok. Fine.
>>>>>­ That's your opinion. I think that my time here is doing no good. All I
>>>>>­ feel is my faith being attacked when people ask me questions about it.
>>>>>­ Then when I answer their questions, I am being called the one referring
>>>>>­ to my faith. This is aggitation. I have the right to my views, and as
>>>>>­ they may be complex and obscure, they are still my views. I am just glad
>>>>>­ I don't live in a world where everyone thought the same thing...
>>>>>­ -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>>>­> Sent: Aug 13,[masked]:22 AM
>>>>>­> To: [address removed]
>>>>>­> Subject: Behold the Righteous (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories)
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> On 08/13/[masked]:17 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­>> Well, I'm not a genius like you, Ken, so I can't disprove every part of
>>>>>­>> my faith, while using a scientific equation to believe that there's no
>>>>>­>> way there's a god. 
>>>>>­> Statements which make sense have value.  What you say above makes no sense.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>> Let's get off of the God stuff. I just don't want to
>>>>>­>> talk about it, because everytime something is written about me and my
>>>>>­>> faith, I feel like me and my faith are being attacked. I don't know, it
>>>>>­>> just seems to be all you guys want to talk about is atheism.
>>>>>­> "Get off the god stuff"...?  You brought up god, saying, "God said...."
>>>>>­> (see below) in order (in your mind) to make some point about alternative
>>>>>­> medicine.  So you brought up "the god stuff" and now you're not wanting
>>>>>­> to talk about it.  You want to be able to make any wild assertions that
>>>>>­> come into your head, but when you're asked to actually make some sense
>>>>>­> of them, well, then you don't want to talk about it.  More than that,
>>>>>­> you claim that in asking you to make sense of what you've said, we're
>>>>>­> attacking you (which isn't true and, ironically, is an attack on me/us).
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> Here's how I'm understanding you so far:
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd wants to make assertions and attack what other people say.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd wants to cite what God said (to Todd?) in his attacks on others.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd doesn't want to have to support the (goofy) assertions made in
>>>>>­> his attacks on others.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * If asked to support his (goofy) assertions, Todd will then assert he's
>>>>>­> being attacked, unjustly so in Todd's mind.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd wants to cite his beliefs in Todd's (goofy) assertions and Todd's
>>>>>­> (goofy) attacks on others, but Todd's beliefs are not to be questioned
>>>>>­> by others.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd thinks other people are bad for "attacking" Todd's beliefs.  Todd
>>>>>­> thinks, therefore, that people who don't believe Todd are bad.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Todd reserves for himself the right to attack anyone and assert
>>>>>­> anything.  But others are not permitted to question Todd's attacks or
>>>>>­> assertions because these are based on Todd's beliefs which are sacrosanct.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> * Given the above, Todd thinks that what Todd says is divinely-inspired
>>>>>­> and therefore also divinely correct and beyond questioning by others.
>>>>>­> Therefore, everyone should simply listen attentively to what Todd says
>>>>>­> and question nothing of what Todd says.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> Todd, you carve out a nice, little world for yourself.  Everything in
>>>>>­> that world is true (in your mind) and no one is allowed to question what
>>>>>­> you say because they're based on your beliefs.  This makes conversations
>>>>>­> with you rather one-sided: you speak, others may only listen.  Your
>>>>>­> mindset is not at all unusual.  I've seen/heard it a hundred times
>>>>>­> before.  And it's not just about Christianity.  I've talked with Muslims
>>>>>­> and Jews who, in the same way as you, claim their assertions are based
>>>>>­> on the Word of God and are therefore not to be questioned.  Quite a few
>>>>>­> politicians and political pundits and others do the same.  So what I'm
>>>>>­> saying isn't specifically about Christianity, but rather about a
>>>>>­> syndrome whereby an ego claims for itself a self-righteousness in what
>>>>>­> that ego says and does, and in so doing denies all challenges.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> In the academic (in the Platonic sense) world, such challenges are, in
>>>>>­> effect, "reality checks."  By listening to others and accepting others'
>>>>>­> challenges-- essentially, allowing that some other reasoning might be
>>>>>­> better-- we can either confirm how we understand the world or adjust our
>>>>>­> reasoning and improve it.  When an ego disallows challenges, as you do,
>>>>>­> and censors out of consideration any opposition, that ego deprives
>>>>>­> itself of the reasoning of others which may either improve or confirm
>>>>>­> that ego's understanding of the world.  Without benefit of others'
>>>>>­> criticism, the only mechanism for improving or confirming an ego's
>>>>>­> understanding is that ego itself, the same ego which created the ego's
>>>>>­> reality in the first place.  With the ego in total, and totalitarian,
>>>>>­> control of what constitutes the ego's "understanding," an
>>>>>­> "understanding" which knows only to dismiss reasoning which is
>>>>>­> incongruent with its own and accept that which is in agreement with its
>>>>>­> own, a view of the world is created which is ego-centric.  This process
>>>>>­> engenders a circularity: assertions and reasoning are accepted by the
>>>>>­> ego on the basis of their agreement or disagreement with the ego, the
>>>>>­> intended goal and self-fulfilling result of which is to preserve the
>>>>>­> ego.  Being its central concern, the ego becomes the center of the
>>>>>­> world; at the same time, in the same movement, the world becomes
>>>>>­> ego-centric.  And so it can happen that, because reasoning and ego have
>>>>>­> become identical, a questioning of the ego's reasoning is construed as
>>>>>­> identical to an attack or affront on the ego itself.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­>>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>>>­>>> Sent: Aug 12,[masked]:57 AM
>>>>>­>>> To: [address removed]
>>>>>­>>> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> God said that, did he?  Did he mean that if it doesn't come out of the
>>>>>­>>> land, you don't need it?  And if we don't need it, should we do without
>>>>>­>>> it?  Is there some stuff that cometh from the land that we don't need?
>>>>>­>>> If so, how do we know which is which, what you do and don't need?  And
>>>>>­>>> did God say this to you, or to someone you know, or did you read it
>>>>>­>>> somewhere?  If you read it somewhere or heard it from someone else, how
>>>>>­>>> do you know it's true and not the work of the Devil?
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> And, Todd, are you saying that alternative medicine started when God
>>>>>­>>> created the Earth or sometime after that?  What was it an alternative
>>>>>­>>> to?  Are the antibiotics that saved millions of lives something evil?
>>>>>­>>> If so, how so?  And doesn't everything originally come out of the Earth?
>>>>>­>>> I mean antibiotics and cars and prophylactics and cocaine didn't come
>>>>>­>> >from another planet or from the sky.  Rain and snow come from the sky,
>>>>>­>>> so do we need them?  Does reading and thinking cometh from the land?
>>>>>­>>> If not, then do we need them?  If so, how did that happen?  So where
>>>>>­>>> does God draw the line here?
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> If an assertion creates more questions than it answers, is that good?
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> On 08/12/[masked]:51 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­>>>> There is nothing "new age" about alternative medicine. It all got
>>>>>­>>> screwed up and the decline of the family doctor occurred when the
>>>>>­>>> antiboitics movement began to occur. Alternative medicine is the most in
>>>>>­>>> line with my faith than any. God said that the land he hath created
>>>>>­>>> provideth all that ye need. It didn't say that a man would need to
>>>>>­>>> deceive you with poisons to make you think you'll feel better, then
>>>>>­>>> screw you with the bill. Common misconception. Nothing new age about it,
>>>>>­>>> totally pure.
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­>>>>>­ From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Sent: Aug 10,[masked]:44 PM
>>>>>­>>>>>­ To: [address removed]
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Maybe Todd was talking about pharmaceutical companies, as they do play a
>>>>>­>>>>>­ big role in pushing drugs on patients-- via complicit doctors of course.
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Big Pharma (as a friend of mine refers to them) also advertises their
>>>>>­>>>>>­ drugs on TV and elsewhere, telling consumers to specifically "ask to
>>>>>­>>>>>­ doctor for The Purple Pill!"  As the bills coming out of Congress
>>>>>­>>>>>­ repeatedly show, as FEC records confirm, and as Sicko points out, Big
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Pharma have a stranglehold on our Federal government and are a major
>>>>>­>>>>>­ reason why we have such expensive healthcare in this country.
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­ As an aside to Todd, I always took the New Age movement to include
>>>>>­>>>>>­ so-called "alternative medicine"; I've been using alternative medical
>>>>>­>>>>>­ methods for a long time and have found that they're oftentimes more
>>>>>­>>>>>­ effective than standard, mainstream, Big-Pharma-endorsed
>>>>>­>>>>>­ pharmaceutical/medic­al practices... and always less expensive, even
>>>>>­>>>>>­ after insurance.  So maybe, Todd, you might find at least this one
>>>>>­>>>>>­ aspect of the New Age movement not so sinister.  (?)
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­ Best,
>>>>>­>>>>>­ ken
>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>>>­ On 08/10/[masked]:36 AM somebody named Maude wrote:
>>>>>­>>>>>­> Oops, sorry, now now Todd,
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> Pharmacists are incapable of "pushing" drugs on kids as they cannot
>>>>>­>>>>>­> prescribe or recommend prescription drugs. I was going to address the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> issue of drugs and kids before but it will take some time. For now, I
>>>>>­>>>>>­> will give you the standard statement I give ADULTS in my family who are
>>>>>­>>>>>­> prescribed medications or told they need procedures etc:
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> "YOU are paying the doctor. YOU get to decide what is best for your
>>>>>­>>>>>­> health and which doctor has the best plan of action for YOU. People
>>>>>­>>>>>­> question their plumbers and electricians and landscapers more than they
>>>>>­>>>>>­> interrogate their physicians because they put doctors on some kind of
>>>>>­>>>>>­> pedestal. It is up to YOU, as the person hiring someone to perform a
>>>>>­>>>>>­> service for YOU, to investigate your problem thoroughly and educate
>>>>>­>>>>>­> YOURSELF in the possible remedies and the possible adverse events that
>>>>>­>>>>>­> could happen with each remedy. You wouldn't hire a plumber who failed to
>>>>>­>>>>>­> mention that if he did A and B it MIGHT work but could cause an
>>>>>­>>>>>­> unintended consequence, C, which could cost you dearly if it should
>>>>>­>>>>>­> occur would you? NO! You would instead, hire the plumber who told you
>>>>>­>>>>>­> that C could happen from the get go. And that's why when you hire a
>>>>>­>>>>>­> plumber you talk to several first. So, why do you not talk to several
>>>>>­>>>>>­> doctors? Why do you not investigate your illness on your own and present
>>>>>­>>>>>­> your doctor with printouts from NIH and journals and question why he or
>>>>>­>>>>>­> she is doing the opposite of what the scientific community recommends?
>>>>>­>>>>>­> WHY? YOU are paying the doctor-he is the hired help, not God."
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> And I would think that when it comes to their children people would be
>>>>>­>>>>>­> even more diligent in investigating what has been recommended to them by
>>>>>­>>>>>­> the doctors they think are so above error.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> So, I do not blame doctors for "pushing" drugs on kids. They are not,
>>>>>­>>>>>­> first of all, they are just working with what they have and keep in
>>>>>­>>>>>­> mind, many parents come in WANTING the ritalin because they can't cope
>>>>>­>>>>>­> with the kid, etc.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> But the ultimate responsibility is with THE PARENT, certainly not the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> doctor. If a parent is so dense as to not investigate their child's
>>>>>­>>>>>­> problem and question the doctor and express an interest in trying
>>>>>­>>>>>­> different, nondrug approaches, well it isn't the doctor's
>>>>>­>>>>>­> responsibility. Sorry.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> I work with doctors, I write their journal articles for them. When I go
>>>>>­>>>>>­> with my mother to her specialists, I laugh and tell them, "I am probably
>>>>>­>>>>>­> your worst nightmare" but they all laugh as well and state, "I only wish
>>>>>­>>>>>­> more patients were as informed as you."
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> But doctor's aren't "pushing" anything on kids-many of these medications
>>>>>­>>>>>­> (and you are only mentioning the psychotropic meds) work well for many
>>>>>­>>>>>­> children for whom diet and exercise would not work at all. There is a
>>>>>­>>>>>­> line beyond which those things while helpful, are just not helpful enough.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­> Oh and I hate to upset you but the FDA is now mandating clinical trials
>>>>>­>>>>>­> for many drugs (nonpsychotropic as well as psychotropic) like statins
>>>>>­>>>>>­> and blood pressure meds and diabetes meds in children and I think that
>>>>>­>>>>>­> is a fantastic thing because all the trials were done in adults. The
>>>>>­>>>>>­> FDAs point is that they want to know exactly how these drugs impact long
>>>>>­>>>>>­> term health. They know what happens if you give a statin to an adult for
>>>>>­>>>>>­> 30 years but what if a child needs one and needs it for 70 years? Good
>>>>>­>>>>>­> questions. Children's metabolisms and hormones are different and can
>>>>>­>>>>>­> impact the side effects. So I agree. AND, no child is a guinea pig in
>>>>>­>>>>>­> such trials without their "PARENT's CONSENT" so I don't entertain the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> idea that the FDA is now using children as guinea pigs. It is the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> parent's decision and responsibility. Not to mention that it is the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> parent's decisions responsible for their 12-year-old having clogged
>>>>>­>>>>>­> arteries, diabetes, dyslipidemia, and obesity, necessitating the need to
>>>>>­>>>>>­> examine the safety in drugs for these conditions in children. It's the
>>>>>­>>>>>­> parent's fault, the FDA is just being responsible in doing the studies
>>>>>­>>>>>­> because the parent's don't/can't/won't/ar­e too lazy to keep their
>>>>>­>>>>>­> children healthy in the first place. When I was a kid there was not an
>>>>>­>>>>>­> epidemic of dyslipidemia and diabetes among my peers.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>  
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­------------
>>>>>­>>>>>­> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com
>>>>>­>>>>>­> <http://discover.a...;­.
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>>>>>­> --
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>>>>>­>>>>>­ This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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>>>>>­>>>>>­
>>>>>­>>>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­>>>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>>­>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>> ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­>>>> PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­>>>> A better way to Internet
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>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
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>>>>>­>>>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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>>>>>­>>> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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>>>>>­>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­>>[masked]
>>>>>­>>[masked]
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­>> PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­>> A better way to Internet
>>>>>­>> http://www.people...­
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
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>>>>>­>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
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>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> --
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>>>>>­> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>>­> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­ Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­ Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­[masked]
>>>>>­[masked]
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­ PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­ A better way to Internet
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>>>
>>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>[masked]­
>>>[masked]­
>>>
>>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>
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> 
> 
> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>[masked]
>[masked]
> 
> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
> 
> 
> ____________________­____________________­
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.people...­
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
> 
> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
> 

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