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Re: helpful (was: Re: excess value (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories))

From: ken
Sent on: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:51 PM
Neither.  Just a comment on your use of the word "asshole" and seeing
how it fits in with the rest of your comments.


On 08/14/[masked]:27 PM somebody named Michael wrote:
> Are you defending your comments with that statement, or just attacking mine?
> 
> */ken <[address removed]>/* wrote:
> 
> 
>     Nice contribution.
> 
>     On 08/14/[masked]:09 PM somebody named Michael wrote:
>     > Ken, you stopped participating in discussions in this group
>     several days
>     > ago. Now, you are just being an asshole. If I wasn't leaving for work
>     > in 10 minutes, I would take the time to show how what you are
>     saying is
>     > just as single-mindedly opinionated and ignorant as you accuse
>     others of
>     > being.
>     >
>     > Frankly, I don't really like what you've been saying here. You have
>     > some good information, and you generally know what you are talking
>     > about, but your points are buried behind vitriol and arrogance. Your
>     > debating style is counter-productive, your attitude is contrary to
>     the*> smooth and effective flow of debate, and your insults are
>     unwarranted
>     > and not very clever.
>     >
>     > I would suggest, rather than making comments like; Yes, give that
>     > person a cigar. It also applies to land (which can be rented or leased
>     > out) or to machinery (which can take the place of human labor). It's
>     > also known as "surplus value", but asking about that would have
>     > permitted a simple web search to get the answer. E.g., wikipedia
>     has its
>     > own page on Marx's concept of "surplus value". you just say what needs
>     > to be said to clarify the discussion. Like the rest of us do. Guess
>     > what? It works! I'm getting tired of listening to you to banter back
>     > and forth, and I'm starting to think that we would be better off
>     without
>     > either of you in our group.
>     >
>     > Please, prove me wrong.
>     >
>     > Michael
>     >
>     > */ken /* wrote:
>     >
>     > On 08/14/[masked]:06 PM somebody named chris wrote:
>     > > Ken,
>     > >
>     > > Excess value is the value of anything over and above the labor
>     > required
>     > > to produce it.
>     >
>     > Yes, give that person a cigar. It also applies to land (which can be
>     > rented or leased out) or to machinery (which can take the place of
>     human
>     > labor). It's also known as "surplus value", but asking about that
>     would
>     > have permitted a simple web search to get the answer. E.g., wikipedia
>     > has its own page on Marx's concept of "surplus value". The original
>     > German term is "Mehrwert", literally "more worth"; this is variously
>     > translated as "surplus value", "excess value", and "value added".
>     >
>     >
>     > > The whole concept is a sham,one might as well discuss the
>     > > concept of the ether on fertility rates on uncorns and manticores.
>     >
>     > Strange you should say that. If I own a plumbing company and have to
>     > send out one of two people on a job for which I, as the owner of the
>     > business, will make $300 an hour; and Barbara costs me $200 per hour
>     > (giving me $100/hour in excess value) and Ann costs me $150 an hour
>     > (giving me $150/hour in excess value), I think this would be good
>     > information to have.
>     >
>     > The same concept can be applied and the same simple calculations can--
>     > and should- be done on the cost of automating part of a production
>     > process prior to purchasing such technology.
>     >
>     > As hinted at above, excess value is the basis of the value-added
>     tax, or
>     > VAT, in Britain and in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and other
>     European
>     > countries. In fact, in German-speaking countries it's known as the
>     > "Mehrwertsteuer", literally "excess value tax", adopting Marx's
>     > terminology unaltered.
>     >
>     > Chris, if I weigh your opinion of the usefulness of the concept of
>     > excess value against the thousands or millions of professional
>     > economists in Europe, who obviously believe it is useful (since
>     they use
>     > it as a basis for their system of taxation), sorry, but I have to come
>     > down on the side of all the European economists. If you can back up
>     > your statement that it's a sham, you should write up and publish a
>     paper
>     > on it. You'd undoubtedly get a Nobel Prize in Economics.
>     >
>     >
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > On Tue,[masked] at 09:35 -0400, ken wrote:
>     > >> Chris,
>     > >>
>     > >> You've made some true statements, but what we're asking after
>     is the
>     > >> meaning of excess value... and then what role does it play in four
>     > >> different kinds of economies.
>     > >>
>     > >>
>     > >> On 08/14/[masked]:50 AM somebody named chris wrote:
>     > >>> Ken,
>     > >>>
>     > >>> THought there was only three,according to Marxist theory.
>     > >>> 1) Slavery-work for free
>     > >>> 2)Appropiated goods,as in feudal rents
>     > >>> 3)Money-which gets into the Classical Labor Value Theory,which
>     > is not a
>     > >>> Marxist idea originally. THe whole school of classical
>     econmics was
>     > >>> buggered about the origins of value.
>     > >>> Well,except for a spainard named Juan de Mariana and others
>     > >>> from,IRCC,Salmanaca.­ THey were quite aware that all value was
>     > subjective
>     > >>> and that nothing had any intristic value. The only value that
>     > anything
>     > >>> had was what men assignd to it.
>     > >>> On Mon,[masked] at 17:16 -0400, ken wrote:
>     > >>>> Todd,
>     > >>>>
>     > >>> If you want to show you have even a rudimentary understanding of
>     > >>>> communism, explain and contrast the varying roles of excess
>     > value in
>     > >>>> four economic systems. I'll be waiting.
>     > >>>>>­
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