Re: excess value (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories)

From: ken
Sent on: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:54 PM
Michael,

"Give the man a cigar" is a congratulatory expression, said when someone
wins something.  When I used it, I meant it just that way.  I was
telling Chris that he had the answer and nothing more.  What's the
problem with that?  I guess you never heard the expression before.


On 08/14/[masked]:26 PM somebody named Michael wrote:
> I'm just bothered by the directions these discussions have turned
> recently.  People seem to prefere insults when they could be presenting
> facts and example to support their argument.  Since last night, when
> Mark asked everyone to lay off, and today, when I posted my comments,
> and then when Maude expressed her feelings, I've seen a dozen more
> emails filled with the same crap.
>  
> Honestly, if everyone focused more on genuine discorse, then everything
> would be kosher.  It's not like you guys don't have valid points.  But
> comments like "Give the man a cigar" and "Big surprise" (not yours, I
> know) accomplish nothing.  When you talk like a jerk people stop caring
> about anything else you may have to say.
>  
> The only thing I would say otherwise to you personally, is that you are
> representing the Christian majority in a group comprised mostly of
> atheists.  If we seem to be ganging up on you at times, we're not. 
> Think of yourself as a representative of your faith.  When we discuss
> religion with you, we are directing our comments (and sometimes,
> admitedly, frustration and anger) to Christianity as a whole.  If
> something we say offends you personally, say so.  I assure you,
> insulting you is not our point.
>  
> Michael
>  
> */Todd Maher <[address removed]>/* wrote:
> 
>     Michael, I apologize if I offended you. However, I was working on a
>     little self preservation. I will attempt to be more focused. I let
>     my emotions get the best of me, but I am a very emotional
>     individual, which isn't always a bad thing. I will not censor myself
>     on principle, but rather at a social level. Let's all reflect on our
>     definition of free thought and further explore it, if you wish.
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     >From: Michael
>     >Sent: Aug 14,[masked]:09 PM
>     >To: [address removed]
>     >Subject: Re: excess value (was: Re: [humanism-174] Science and
>     Theories)
>     >
>     >Ken, you stopped participating in discussions in this group several
>     days ago. Now, you are just being an asshole. If I wasn't leaving
>     for work in 10 minutes, I would take the time to show how what you
>     are saying is just as single-mindedly opinionated and ignorant as
>     you accuse others of being.
>     >
>     >Frankly, I don't really like what you've been saying here. You have
>     some good information, and you generally know what you are talking
>     about, but your points are buried behind vitriol and arrogance. Your
>     debating style is counter-productive, your attitude is contrary to
>     the smooth and effective flow of debate, and your insults are
>     unwarranted and not very clever.
>     >
>     >I would suggest, rather than making comments like; Yes, give that
>     person a cigar. It also applies to land (which can be rented or
>     leased out) or to machinery (which can take the place of human
>     labor). It's also known as "surplus value", but asking about that
>     would have permitted a simple web search to get the answer. E.g.,
>     wikipedia has its own page on Marx's concept of "surplus value". you
>     just say what needs to be said to clarify the discussion. Like the
>     rest of us do. Guess what? It works! I'm getting tired of listening
>     to you to banter back and forth, and I'm starting to think that we
>     would be better off without either of you in our group.
>     >
>     >Please, prove me wrong.
>     >
>     >Michael
>     >
>     >ken wrote: On 08/14/[masked]:06 PM somebody named chris wrote:
>     >> Ken,
>     >>
>     >> Excess value is the value of anything over and above the labor
>     required
>     >> to produce it.
>     >
>     >Yes, give that person a cigar. It also applies to land (which can be
>     >rented or leased out) or to machinery (which can take the place of
>     human
>     >labor). It's also known as "surplus value", but asking about that would
>     >have permitted a simple web search to get the answer. E.g., wikipedia
>     >has its own page on Marx's concept of "surplus value". The original
>     >German term is "Mehrwert", literally "more worth"; this is variously
>     >translated as "surplus value", "excess value", and "value added".
>     >
>     >
>     >> The whole concept is a sham,one might as well discuss the
>     >> concept of the ether on fertility rates on uncorns and manticores.
>     >
>     >Strange you should say that. If I own a plumbing company and have to
>     >send out one of two people on a job for which I, as the owner of the
>     >business, will make $300 an hour; and Barbara costs me $200 per hour
>     >(giving me $100/hour in excess value) and Ann costs me $150 an hour
>     >(giving me $150/hour in excess value), I think this would be good
>     >information to have.
>     >
>     >The same concept can be applied and the same simple calculations can--
>     >and should- be done on the cost of automating part of a production
>     >process prior to purchasing such technology.
>     >
>     >As hinted at above, excess value is the basis of the value-added
>     tax, or
>     >VAT, in Britain and in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and other
>     European
>     >countries. In fact, in German-speaking countries it's known as the
>     >"Mehrwertsteuer"­, literally "excess value tax", adopting Marx's
>     >terminology unaltered.
>     >
>     >Chris, if I weigh your opinion of the usefulness of the concept of
>     >excess value against the thousands or millions of professional
>     >economists in Europe, who obviously believe it is useful (since
>     they use
>     >it as a basis for their system of taxation), sorry, but I have to come
>     >down on the side of all the European economists. If you can back up
>     >your statement that it's a sham, you should write up and publish a
>     paper
>     >on it. You'd undoubtedly get a Nobel Prize in Economics.
>     >
>     >
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Tue,[masked] at 09:35 -0400, ken wrote:
>     >>> Chris,
>     >>>
>     >>> You've made some true statements, but what we're asking after is the
>     >>> meaning of excess value... and then what role does it play in four
>     >>> different kinds of economies.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> On 08/14/[masked]:50 AM somebody named chris wrote:
>     >>>> Ken,
>     >>>>
>     >>>> THought there was only three,according to Marxist theory.
>     >>>> 1) Slavery-work for free
>     >>>> 2)Appropiated goods,as in feudal rents
>     >>>> 3)Money-which gets into the Classical Labor Value Theory,which
>     is not a
>     >>>> Marxist idea originally. THe whole school of classical econmics was
>     >>>> buggered about the origins of value.
>     >>>> Well,except for a spainard named Juan de Mariana and others
>     >>>> from,IRCC,Salmanaca.­ THey were quite aware that all value was
>     subjective
>     >>>> and that nothing had any intristic value. The only value that
>     anything
>     >>>> had was what men assignd to it.
>     >>>> On Mon,[masked] at 17:16 -0400, ken wrote:
>     >>>>>­ Todd,
>     >>>>>­
>     >>>> If you want to show you have even a rudimentary understanding of
>     >>>>>­ communism, explain and contrast the varying roles of excess
>     value in
>     >>>>>­ four economic systems. I'll be waiting.
>     >>>>>­>
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> 
>     Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>     Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>    [masked]
>    [masked]
> 
>     "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and
>     brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid
>     join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -Mark Twain, 1904
> 
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> --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­------------
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