Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

From: Marian
Sent on: Friday, June 19, 2009 12:48 PM
Although this is unusual, I do have some sympathy for the fathers in this whole issue.��
If they impregnate someone, they have no say as to whether or not she will have the
baby.�� If thr man��wants the baby, she may still have an abortion.�� If��he does not want the
baby, which is usually the case with accidental pregnancies,��he will��still obligated to
pay child support for 18 years.�� I do not feel this is fair to the man.�� Perhaps if a man
doesn't want the child, he should offer to pay for the abortion and that would end
his obligation.
��
I would not, however, ever take the right to have an abortion away from the woman,
since it is her body and she should never be forced to bear a child she doesn't
want.��
Marian
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
You're lending credence to a potentiality and ignoring my point that nature is the most prolific abortionist. Also you have failed to coherently explain why it's a life why it should be granted the same rights as a live woman, why as an atheist are you using appeals to emotion?

Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry


From: MichaelV
Date: Fri, 19 Jun[masked]:14:45 -0400

To: <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

So, a person undergoing a heart transplant, or a person in a temporary coma does not count?��

A zygote deserves the same consideration as any other person, but like all humans, circumstances do dictate the rights any particular individual has.�� A zygote has no inherent right to life like a newborn does, a newborn has no right of self-determination the way a teenager does...etc.�� If you want a good lesson in what I am referring to, join the army.�� Basic Training is designed to destroy you as a person; you are humiliated, tortured, assaulted, punished, deceived, forced to undergo actions detrimental to your health and deprived of nearly all of your civil liberties in the process.�� You get most of them back at the end, but while you are in that particular situation you are operating under the Animal Farm rules: All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Michael


From: Michael <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, June 19,[masked]:46:57 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

The ability to reason, the ability exist outside the womb. We are able to define the difference between non-life and life. Is it a rock or is it an embryo? I suppose I could test that empirically. Are you saying you need clear definition to distinguish between life and non life because if so most people can do that quite easily. A zygote does not and should not trump a real, living, breathing, thinking woman with self-derived purpose, goals, thoughts and desires

Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry


From: MichaelV
Date: Fri, 19 Jun[masked]:40:36 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

Not all clumps are created equal.�� If you fail to make a distinction between life and non-life, and then human or non-human, you will fall into a redundant cycle in which you are unable to define any life as having worth.�� The only way we can appropriately grant any life meaning is to grant all human life equality, from an inseminated egg two days after sex to a 90 year old invalid; the necessity of equality is what allows for a civil society to function.��

Michael


From: Michael <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, June 19,[masked]:15:48 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

How is a clump of cells a life? Because the brain of a fly contains more cells than a zygote yet we swat them all the time. Can it think, can it reason? No because it has no neurons to do so OR feel pain. But a woman does and her right to have control over her own body should not be subjects to someone else "feelings".

Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry


From: MichaelV
Date: Fri, 19 Jun[masked]:09:19 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?

Abortion is the termination of a human life; anytime a person takes another persons life outside of reasonable or expected circumstances, it is immoral.�� I think that there are only a few extremely rare instances in which it would be moral; in the case of some abortions, while I wouldn't call it immoral, we must still acknowledge that abortion is taking a human life.�� Doing so as a form of birth control is always immoral.�� That's what I mean when I say compassion vs. convenience; abortion influenced by undesirable, unforeseeable, or unintended circumstances for either party is not moral, but it is not immoral.��

Could you clarify what you mean in your second statement?�� Do you mean to say that if a person finds a baby inconvenient for them, or for the baby, or for both, or for some other party?�� And if you are saying that abortion may be justified out of an issue of convenience for the parent/s, then there are only two ways of looking at it; if the parent/s took appropriate measures in order to avoid getting pregnant, but it still happened, then I consider it wrong and immoral, but only very slightly; if you are suggesting that they did not take appropriate precautions, then they are committing an act of murder- a barbaric one at that, as we have defined it in our message boards on the topic.

I absolutely disagree with your last statement.

Michael

From: Ginger <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, June 19,[masked]:38:56 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?


I think relying on abortion as a primary source of birth control is stupid, but not immoral. If you think it is immoral, please explain why.

As for convenience you are implying that if a person finds having a baby "inconvenient" that they are not making the decision out of compassion to the baby. I argue yes they are, in addition to convenience to themselves, which must be part of the equation.

All in all, I don't find any moral problem with abortion for any reason with or without apology. If the embryo/fetus is far along that it may feel pain, administer pain relief. If something has no sense of future, then I don't feel it's morally wrong to kill it.

--- On Fri, 6/19/09, MichaelV <[address removed]> wrote:

> From: MichaelV <[address removed]>
> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Abortion: Murder, Compassion, or Convenience?
> To: [address removed]
> Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 10:06 AM
> Not to pry too deeply, but I
> assume you do use at least one form of birth control when
> necessary?��
>
> And I think that the convenience factor must necessarily be
> distinct from the compassion factor: I used that term like
> many pro-lifers tend to use it: as a pejorative.
>
> Michael




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