Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty

From: user 9.
Sent on: Saturday, June 20, 2009 4:31 PM
I agree..............-­--- MichaelV <[address removed]> wrote: 
> I never said anything about successfully rehabilitating everyone, especially sociopaths like Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer, Manson, and their ilk. 
> 
> Comfort is a relative term.  I would never suggest that we build harems in the basements of a prison; however, there are basic creature comforts boyond what is necessary for survival that they are entitled to.  Primarily because for every one Gacy, there are 100,000 convicts serving short sentences for what may be classified as a mistake or a lapse in judgement.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________­____________
> From: Randall Tiedman <[address removed]>
> To: [address removed]
> Sent: Saturday, June 20,[masked]:17:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> 
> I had exactly that point of view years ago. I believed everyone could be reached and rehabilated and it was our obligation to do so. I still hope thats true but experiences have shown me there are some bad apples that cant be reached. I agree with you (from a past e-mail) that it would be beneficial to study Bundy, Gacy and the like. I think we can agree they need to be removed and studied but Im not overly concerned with their comfort unless you feel punishment is not necessary?
> ---- MichaelV <[address removed]> wrote: 
> > I actually disagree with you both on two issues.
> > 
> > One, a moral and just society has the responsibility (and should have the desire) to not only care for the incarcerated but to do everything possible to rehabilitate those individuals; regardless of their sentence.  The main problem with the prison system today is that we send young people coming from cruel and corrosive  environments into a factory that turns youth and inexperience into hardened and fatalistic criminality.  By not treating these people with respect and dignity, we deprive them of their humanity, and in effect creates a circular system that all but guarantees that they will commit future crimes upon release, ending up back in the system, or slain.  A system of punishment that causes people to be more likely to need further punishment does not work; and thus, does not exist.
> > 
> > Two, any state that inflicts upon any individual the very acts explicitly prohibited by said state, or intentionally deprives any individual the rights and protections explicitly guaranteed to the populous as a whole can appropriately characterized as a failed state; in modern civilization, the protections inherent to the people cannot be restricted or revoked under any circumstance.  Torture, exploitation, abuse, and death as a penalty are direct contradictions to the ethical and legal mandate set out in our constitution; treating the worst in our society equally well to the best and to the rest is neither a sign of weakness nor a foolhardy attempt at righteousness.  It is only our commitment to our ideals and our guaranteeing equal rights to the very people many of us would rather not have any rights at all that allows us make claim to be in action what we strive to be in ideal; a free, open, just, moral and libertarian society.
> > 
> > Michael
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ____________________­____________
> > From: Randall Tiedman <[address removed]>
> > To: [address removed]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 20,[masked]:56:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> > 
> > I have been against the death penalty not because of concern for the person who committed the crime but for what it says about me. Its the same for torture or hard labor. To quote Nietzsche "he who hunts dragons becomes a dragon himself" and I prefer to think of myself in kinder terms. I dont think they should live a life of comfort however. When I have watched what prison life is like on TV I would prefer to exit life as soon as possible by my own hand....Randall
> > ---- Rick <[address removed]> wrote: 
> > > I never liked the death penalty.  Not because I think these people deserve a
> > > second chance or that two wrongs don't make a right or even the whole moral
> > > issue.  No.  I think the death penalty is wrong because I think we ought to
> > > put these sick bastards to work.  Coal mines are really dangerous after all
> > > and wouldn't be nice to not have to worry about whether or not the miners
> > > make it out alive next time there's a cave in?  Seriously.  And whatever
> > > money they would normally earn for their work would go to paying for their
> > > room and board with the rest going to their victims or victims families.  I
> > > am just sick to the teeth of these guys sitting around playing in the gym
> > > and watching cable tee vee that I pay for.  I can't even afford to have
> > > internet at home!  It is, pardon my english, utter bullshit.  I vote we go
> > > back to bread and water and hard labor.
> > > 
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In Canada and Britain they have taken extra measures to ensure that
> > > > innocent people don't get convicted whereas here the minute a cop's "gut"
> > > > tells him a person is guilty, it's hard to put the syrup back in the bottle
> > > >
> > > > Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry
> > > >
> > > > --------------------­----------
> > > > *From*: Suzanne
> > > > *Date*: Fri, 19 Jun[masked]:55:03 -0400
> > > >
> > > > *To*: <[address removed]>
> > > > *Subject*: Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> > > >
> > > >  Once I found out that it costs less to house and feed these people than
> > > > to kill them, I decided maybe the death penalty wasn't such a good idea
> > > > after all.
> > > >
> > > > I also have concerns about the fallibility of a system which, as we have
> > > > seen with advances in DNA technology, occasionally condemns innocent people.
> > > >
> > > > So, while it may be more satisfying emotionally to put these people to
> > > > death for their crimes, perhaps it is better over all for society to jail
> > > > them for life without possibility of parole.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps they will mend their ways and do some good in prison.  Perhaps they
> > > > will later be exonerated by DNA.  Or perhaps they will spend the rest of
> > > > their lives suffering for what they did.
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't really matter to me which if the money which would otherwise be
> > > > spent on appeals can be used for health care reform, education,
> > > > welfare-to-work programs, etc.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>  I am so divided on this issue- I have always been like that. It's like
> > > >> I'm permanently in both states, like Schrodinger's Cat or something.
> > > >>
> > > >> I favor draconian punishments for violent crime. And I do believe in the
> > > >> second chance in most cases, but not the 3rd or 4th or 5th.
> > > >>
> > > >> So for the most heinous of violent crimes, the death penalty is a fitting
> > > >> punishment... or is it? Is rotting away in prison for the rest of the
> > > >> violent criminal's life a better form of vengeance for the family & friends
> > > >> of the victim?
> > > >>
> > > >> For some particularly heartless murderers, serving life in prison seems
> > > >> too mild a punishment. Torture is definitely primitive and NOT RIGHT... that
> > > >> leaves capital punishment. Is it better to rid the earth of such inhuman
> > > >> scum, or have them live out the rest of their days under a total loss of
> > > >> freedom?
> > > >>
> > > >>   On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I agree with you completely marian
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --------------------­----------
> > > >>> *From*: Marian
> > > >>> *Date*: Thu, 18 Jun[masked]:45:22 -0400
> > > >>> *To*: <[address removed]>
> > > >>> *Subject*: Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  The offender is not being rational.  He is on drugs, had a bad
> > > >>> childhood, was abused, has bad genes, is a sociopath (a personality disorder
> > > >>> out of his control) whatever.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The state is rational, or so we would hope.  So what is the state's
> > > >>> excuse for stooping to the same behavior of killing someone.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I understand that victims' families do want revenge.  I would if it
> > > >>> happened to me.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But rationally, I do not see any good coming from capital punishment.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Marian
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>  But what use is it? Why not spend more money on prevention and
> > > >>>> detection? Also again executions cost more money! There is only a subjective
> > > >>>> reason to take a life. When will we be better than Saudi Arabia?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Sent on the Now Network��� from my Sprint�� BlackBerry
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --------------------­----------
> > > >>>> *From*: Don Boos
> > > >>>> *Date*: Thu, 18 Jun[masked]:20:35 -0400
> > > >>>> *To*: <[address removed]>
> > > >>>>  *Subject*: Re: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>  The death penalty prevents the offender from repeating his crime. I
> > > >>>> think the death penalty should be reserved for repeat offenders (serial
> > > >>>> killers and multiple killings.) It should require an absolute proof of guilt
> > > >>>> to prevent executing an innocent person.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>­ My girl and I are on opposite sided because our friend was murdered and
> > > >>>>>­ she believe they should. Eye for an eye is her logic *sigh* I believe we
> > > >>>>>­ should take the moral high ground and show mercy. We are the civilized
> > > >>>>>­ country with a death penalty, a barbaric institution that actually costs the
> > > >>>>>­ taxpayers MORE money than locking them away for the rest of their days.
> > > >>>>>­ Furthermore, the death penalty has been shown time and time again to not
> > > >>>>>­ prevent murders. It's state sanctioned revenge and I don't want a part in it
> > > >>>>>­ though I do understand why people like it.
> > > >>>>>­  ------Original Message------
> > > >>>>>­ From: Ginger
> > > >>>>>­ Sender: CFINO
> > > >>>>>­ To: CFINO
> > > >>>>>­ ReplyTo: CFINO
> > > >>>>>­ Subject: [humanism-174] Death Penalty
> > > >>>>>­ Sent: Jun 18,[masked]:41 AM
> > > >>>>>­
> > > >>>>>­
> > > >>>>>­ I love to hear everyone's opinions on controversial topics, so here is
> > > >>>>>­ another!
> > > >>>>>­
> > > >>>>>­
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