Re: [humanism-174] Re: Objectivism

From: Mikkel F.
Sent on: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:44 PM
To me there is a difference between being "radical" and being "extreme." Both MLK/Gandhi and the founding fathers were radicals, but they weren't extreme. On the contrary, they had moderate positions in the face of the illogical extremism that was status quo. As for extreme atheism, is not the communist version extreme? That is surely wrong and counterproductive. I also don't think that che should be the example for anything good, since he was responsible for far more deaths and suffering of his supposed allies and the oppressed than anything...as his primary role became an enforcer and part of his "charm" was that he was brutal and unpredictable.  


From: Michael <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24,[masked]:04:03 PM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Re: Objectivism

I don't all together agree with you. Che Guevara was extreme but he made the imperialists and their cohorts aware that we Latin American were quite frankly, sick of the shit. We were through with Washington's games. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X were considered extreme, they both had radical messages that weren't near the" middle." And what is extreme Atheism? "Hey faithhead you I'm right, your wrong, let's talk discuss it further." There are arguably some fringe elements on the left but unlike the Right's open hostility to caring about human suffering(unless it's their family) and our destruction of this planet they tend to be extreme about making us aware of just how full of shit we truly are. Nationalism is extreme in even small doses as it encourages xenophobia, appeals to tradition, imperialistic overtures, and ignoring others considered less than (unless their are resources to exploit of course) as for Independents, I can sympathize with the ideal, but they're so damn incoherent at times. The middle it seems to me can be a place for fence-sitters,(on the Left I mean) a place where others can struggle for change while they pay lip service to the ideals and yet have the audacity to do nothing but criticize! Furthermore, you seem to have "extremists" all together which is not accurate and creates a straw man. I've seen and researched things that should make anyone stand up and so "no more." I've heard this line of rhetoric from those that have never truly been oppressed or experienced the reality of being a second class citizen. So one can be hard pressed to understand "extremism" which in a certain sense and certain instances is entirely justified. That is not to say that I entirely disagree with you but showing the other side

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From: Gary
Date: Wed, 24 Jun[masked]:26:50 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Re: Objectivism

  Extremism is always dangerous -- whether it's extreme objectivism, conservatism, socialism, capitalism, libertarianism, nationalism, or atheism.  The answer to almost everything in life is somewhere in the middle.  The question is whether to be on the right or left half of the bell curve.
 
  A huge chunk of Republicans don't identify with Rush Limbaugh.  A huge chunk of Democrats don't identify with Hillary or Kennedy..  That's why so many Americans consider themselves Independents.  I'm surprised a moderate party (like, maybe, The Moderate Party?) hasn't been able to scoop up all those who recognize that there are nutjobs on both sides of the aisle and in any -ism you can think of.
 
  But extremists get all the press.  They're more interesting and more controversial...and more dangerous.
 


--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Michael <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Re: Objectivism
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 4:24 PM

Speaking of Randian politics, my first encounter with a libertarian was at a cafe. A woman had made a comment about individual rights or some such and a young blond man about 22 snorted on his way out the door "That's why I'm a Libertarian." Instinctively my hackles raised and I didn't know why at the time as I only had a vague notion of what he was(I was 17 maybe) I researched them and egoistic immorality appalled me. I can dig the personal autonomy, that's wonderful but the selfish components that are plugged into that ideal sicken me. Anti-government awesome if it wasn't for the fact that WE are the government. Anti-charity and good will well that's when expletives start flying from my mouth. My prejudice may be irrational but talking with one makes my skin crawl and I always want to punch one in the mouth. And I'm not the only atheist to feel this way, make your way to PZ Myers blog and watch the sharks devour any libertarian that dares swim in the water. It ain't pretty
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From: Mark Tiborsky
Date: Tue, 23 Jun[masked]:59:35 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Re: Objectivism
Philosophy, or propaganda? Pretty lady, or android? From the Ayn Rand Institute:
 
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Josh <[address removed]> wrote:
"But a case could be made that Objectivism is a form of atheism
without the freethought" - Mark

That's exactly how I feel. I have a strong dislike for Objectivism,
for many of the reasons mentioned.

For those of you that have been here a while and remember the piece I
wrote a year or so ago on free market capitalism as religion
(http://clevelandfreethinkers.blogspot.com/2008/02/free-market-capitalism-as-religion.html),
much of it was a veiled attack on Objectivist philosophy, especially
my criticism of Greenspan. For the same reasons I tend to take an
almost hostile stand toward die hard Ron Paul supporters, as Paul is
also admittedly a huge Rand fan and proponent of objectivist
philosophy.

Rand was a smart lady, and I think she milked the WWII ant-communist
sentiment as much as she could in order to make herself a star. It's a
shame people today still can't see that's it's nothing more than that.

As somewhat of an altruist myself, I disagree greatly with much of her
philosophy, down to the basics. I think it was Mikkel that said that
the independence of existence and reality is an axiom of philosophy,
which is true. Philosophy does not debate this, but rather questions
how the two interact, a point that Rand completely misses. A debate on
the existence of reality is pointless without a perception of that
reality.

Rand's describes her famous "Axiom of Identity" with the quote "A leaf
cannot be both all red and all green at the same time." My response to
the objectivist is to take that leaf, red or green, to a colorblind
person and ask them if it is all red or all green.

Josh 1



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