RE: [humanism-174] Why can't I be a "nice and quiet" atheist?

From: user 2.
Sent on: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:49 AM
"Yet many, if not most, people will say you should leave a person's religious beliefs alone: "It's their faith.""
 
Wouldnt this stand to reason?  If there is no logical basis for the belief, then how would one debate it?  I think many, if not most, will shy from a religious debate since they themselves cannot justify their emotional attachment to their religious traditions, and cannot explain what it is they believe that they believe in.  For themselves its a way of hiding ignorance, and for a view of others its less "leave them alone they are ok", as it is more "leave them alone because its a waste of time." 
 
The worst level of religious debate, but perhaps the most satisfying for me from the outside, is watching two Xtians haggle over some minute detail of the bible or of a holiday, etc.  It only proves my point most of the time, if I have been debating and perhaps found a way to pit the two of them against each other.  It happens almost every time...rather than ganging up on me, the religious folks in a debate will find differences in their common ground and argue amonst themselves, while ignoring the weirdo they do not understand.
 
What I cannot understand is the difference cited in Michael's original lament: Why are the religious believers "off limits" while we who are "different" are open for critcism?  It is an arrogance of percieving themselves as "normal".  Who decides normal, and how do we change this?
 
 
 
 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Monday, September 28,[masked]:10 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Why can't I be a "nice and quiet" atheist?

That's true, Mark. But, still, that's an individual response that has more to do with a particular personality than with the subject matter. In general, even people who aren't open to discussion about their politics (tho they probably assume they are) will say that it's okay to challenge/debate someone's political beliefs. Yet many, if not most, people will say you should leave a person's religious beliefs alone: "It's their faith."
 
matt


From: Mark R. Orel <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, September 28,[masked]:34:12 AM
Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Why can't I be a "nice and quiet" atheist?

Ginger:

I disagree with your premise.  Any subject can invite a severe response if the individual is not
open to its discussion. 

As a political example, I would give you the Ralph Nader candidacy of 2004.  To this day
there are some who experience a negative visceral reaction to his name.

M. Orel


Ginger wrote:
I want an explanation of why someone can bring up something political and be challenged on it but not if they bring up their religious beliefs.

--- On Sun, 9/27/09, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Michael <[address removed]>
Subject: [humanism-174] Why can't I be a "nice and quiet" atheist?
To: [address removed]
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 2:38 PM

The religious always let off a moan of collected indignity when they are asked pointedly to justify their beliefs. I always hear religious people get upset about the so-called "new" atheists. There is nothing new about us, we are the same old atheists who ask "Why?" to your face instead of to each other. I tire of being told by Christians that they have atheist friends who "live and let be" who don't demand evidence. So? What's your point? I assure you that are either feeling pity for your self-delusion or laugh at your beliefs  behind your back. Should I be quiet when you say "the Bible says so" Should I pretend respect when you say 'Homosexuality is an abomination"? Should I not laugh out loud when I hear you brag about how "humble you are"? If your beliefs did not directly clash with modernity and secularism then I may live and let live. But let us not forget the legacies of ignorant, irrational beliefs and the crimes justified because of them ; Grown women dragged out their homes, beaten tortured then set on fire, they're cries of agony drowned out by the righteous jeers of the crowd, the institution of slavery, it's scars still visible to this day, the self-hatred and/or insecurity of many Western women, Palestine, 9/11, The Holocaust, the fatwah on Salman Rushdie's head for writing a fictional book about Islam (he still lives in protection). I want proof for your ridiculous certainty, that is not disrespect but honest inquiry. No belief should be safe from criticism, otherwise we would not bat an eye at racists, Holocaust deniers, UFO "abductees",  conspiracy theorists, etc. So why are yours off limits? They are just as irrational if not more so because you think they represent reality, you arrogantly belief that someone "up there" is looking out for you. How pathetically putrescent . What's more sick is that you think this was all made for you. So no, I won't be quiet, I won't stop questioning. As long as you keep that macabre representation of an execution around your neck, as long as you say "I'm blessed" (even though you're still in the same spot you were 5 years  ago), that "there is a reason for everything" then I will call you out on it.
--
"They can't see anymore how their wide eyes have made them blind in spite of themselves."-Mushroomhead




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