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The Cleveland Freethinkers Message Board The Cleveland Freethinkers Discussion Forum General Discussions › Have you ever had a "doubting atheist" moment?

Have you ever had a "doubting atheist" moment?

A former member
Post #: 7
It seems that you think that just because there is some debate about the various steps that take place between the initation and the completion of a lightning strike or a tornado that there is room for god. The scientist are just debating how to best discribe the physics, they are not saying that they can't ever discribe it. And we will be learning things about lightning and tornados for I expect thousands of years. Defining the physics with greater ans greater detail and presision. But that does not mean we don't know how they come about and that we need to shove god into the equasion.

As for the universe from nothing. Yes I know you can get something from nothing. Happens all of the time. Scientist can actualy measure it happening. You see there is more to nothing than meets the eye.

The main problem people have with the whole something out of nothing thing is this........ There is no such thing as nothing. A nothingness is a non-thing. Your concept of nothing is wrong. The quantum foam is as close to nothing as you can ever get. There is nothing that does not contain the quantum foam. Not even outside of the universe,( if there is such a place). So get the first cause thing out of your head. There is no single first cause, there are an infinite number of first causes and none of them precede any of the others in any meaningful way.
A former member
Post #: 38
I know nothing, I am agnostic to whether there is an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire in my garage.

So THAT'S where he went at the end of the movie!
A former member
Post #: 28
Happened to see Lawrence Krauss video on youtube about something from nothing.

http://www.npr.org/20...­

http://youtu.be/7Imvl...­
A former member
Post #: 40
Dammit. My reading list is getting longer and longer. First Lawrence Krauss, then Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor's, then Dr. Eben Alexander's once it comes out (though the last one sounds like it may make my head hurt). With Taylor being a neuroanatomist and Alexander being a neurosurgeon, it'll be interesting to hear their takes on their near-death experiences from the "inside out," so to speak.

And now I found Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century. Seems to be an 800-page chunk of academia on a number of subjects addressed in this thread. Hardly "woo." It seems no libraries around here have it in book form, so Amazon it is.
Mark R. O.
MROrel
Cleveland, OH
Post #: 109
John:


Again, I did not bring God into this conversation,
you did.

How lightning initially forms is still a matter of debate.


However, the step from supercell(or other respective
formative processes) to tornadogenesis and predicting tornadic
vs. non-tornadic mesocyclones is not yet well known and is the
focus of much research.


I take these comments to mean that the cause of these effects
remains unknown and science, to date, cannot define the trigger,
the cause, that initiates the effect. If you read these statements
differently, that is your prerogative.

And we will be learning things about lightning and tornadoes for I
expect thousands of years.


Now, here we agree, you even make my point. Just as we will be
learning things about lightning and tornadoes for thousands of years,
so to, will we be learning about the universe and creation.

The main problem people have with the whole something out of nothing
thing is this........ There is no such thing as nothing. A nothingness is a non-thing.
Your concept of nothing is wrong. The quantum foam is as close to nothing as you
can ever get. There is nothing that does not contain the quantum foam. Not even
outside of the universe,( if there is such a place). So get the first cause thing out
of your head. There is no single first cause, there are an infinite number of first
causes and none of them precede any of the others in any meaningful way.

Here, we seem to disagree. You seem to support Dr. Krauss's
view of the universe. His view is more metaphysical than it is
physical. Dr. Krauss definition of nothing is more Hegelian than
scientific.

Nothing, that which is characterized by utter absence of
determination; perfect indistinguishableness.

I would be happy to debate Dr. Krauss's concepts with you.
He leaves himself wide open on a number of topics.


M. Orel

Rafiq M.
RafiqMahmood
Bogor, ID
Post #: 1,086
Dr Krauss' book has just arrived. I don't think it will take long to read. I was expecting something a little thinker wink
A former member
Post #: 41
I just got Irreducible Mind in today. I think I'll wait a while before delving into all 800 pages' worth. I also received Angela Grubbs' (much shorter) Chosen to Believe. Here's a charming excerpt about her Baptist childhood:


Angela loved visuals, but even more than visuals, she loved teddy bears. Her teacher made teddy bears to go along with the poster board and demonstrated happy and sad bears. Happy bears were saved bears who went to heaven to live in big houses in the blue top portion of the poster board. Sad bears were not saved and were thrown into a lake of fire when they died. The teacher demonstrated the sad bears' descent into hell with the lower red portion of the poster board, a match and an ashtray.

How comforting. That reminded me of my grandma telling me a story about growing up in Catholic school. The nuns would tell all the children about the poor unbaptized mission babies in Africa, encouraging the kids to donate to the cause- or else. My grandma pictured someone pushing the unbaptized African babies in the river to drown, one by one.

Reading more... oh man, I can relate to her story so much, it's freaky. Granted, I was never raised in a strict religious school, but my PSR experience sort of gave me a taste. Her "deconversion" made me want to cheer her on (as a librarian, I'm all about reading banned books, which is what Angela is expelled for. That, and presumably being possessed by Satan for firing back at the bitchy preacher's wife). It reminded me of "Saved." Being that it's from a small publisher, it could've used more editing, but I'm still enjoying her snarky passive-aggressive tone, such as the description of the women's bible group: "Topics of discussion ranged from who had the best tuna casserole recipe to how to properly submit to their husband's dominating role in the family."
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