I have to agree with Coyo on this: While dictatorship is usually a forcive thing, there CAN be good dictatorship. It all depends on the person, really.
> From: [address removed]
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions
> Date: Thu, 30 Aug[masked]:07:18 -0400
> On Thu, 30 Aug[masked]:11:09 -0400
> Amaroq <[address removed]> wrote:
> > I really have to disagree strongly with a good amount of what you
> > just said. It's impossible for there to be a good dictator.
> A dictator doesn't HAVE to force people to obey at gunpoint. There is
> always the choice to not act.
> The opposite of dictatorship is anarchy. Anarchy SOUNDS nice but I
> really don't want to discuss this.
> > No matter
> > how well-intentioned, it's impossible to achieve good by controlling
> > people. Human nature is such that we flourish the best when we're
> > free to think and act on our own judgment. Any person or any
> > government initiating force prevents people from acting on their own
> > judgment.
> Anarchy sounds good at first, but how are we going to achieve it?
> Anarchy-capitalism is what I would prefer, where there is no real
> authorized initator of force, in the sense of being legitimized in
> their initation of force.
> But this will never happen while government of any kind exists.
> We could attempt to reform existing government to get as close to
> direct electronic democracy as possible, but again, how do we
> transition to that?
> There are existing powers that are neither you nor I, and we have
> almost no power against them.
> > The creation of wealth depends on the ability of free people to
> > produce and trade with each other. Interposing your judgment
> my judgement?
> > between
> > their judgment and their actions stifles their ability to live the
> > way they think is best for them, and destroys actual and potential
> > wealth. Thus it's counterproductive for you to say you want a good
> > dictatorship to help you accomplish your dream of a spacefaring
> > society.
> Fair enough.
> I would never want a permanent dictatorship, that's for certain.
> But a strong leadership may be necessary to transition to electronic
> direct democracy or a form of true anarchy, in order to combat existing
> governments, and the powers that control them.
> > You'll need those people to continue voluntarily trading and
> > creating wealth in order to have someone to trade with yourself.
> > Trying to impose your dreams with a dictatorship will actually work
> > to destroy your chance to realize those dreams. And you'll destroy
> > everyone else's dreams in the process.
> > I would also say most humans don't objectively act in their
> > self-interest. :P You might be confusing self-interest for hedonism,
> > which I don't consider to be in your self-interest.
> Utilitarianism is a form of hedonism when balanced by scientific
> enlightenment. Unfortunately, Utilitarianism seems to be a scientific
> ideal that no actual human could ever obey. We'll see.
> > A drug addict is
> > a good example of this. Just because you want something doesn't
> > necessarily mean it's in your self-interest.
> This depends on the drug. Not all drugs are bad, nor are all drugs
> necessarily harmful to you, or even against your actual self interest.
> What you are saying is, "what you want isn't necessarily what you need."
> Turning the precept of "Let the people decide for themselves" around,
> who determines that something someone wants ISN'T what they need? Why
> NOT allow the market to supply drugs to those who want them?
> > This whole time, I've been speaking of humans in general. But you
> > seem set on making this a furry exclusive thing. That's gonna make it
> > tougher I'm sure. Maybe even impossible, or close to impossible.
> I am not making it exclusive to furries, but I do want to make it a
> central headquarters for furry culture, similar to how Salt Lake City
> is a LOT MORE than just the headquarters of Mormon culture and society,
> it's a city in it's own right, and many non-LDS insurance corporations
> are headquartered there. Salt Lake City contains many mormons, but it's
> not a purely mormon city.
> By saying this, I am not comparing furry fan community culture and
> society with a religion, as that would be comparing apples with
> oranges, but subculture to subculture, we don't have a central
> headquarters, yet, whereas the subculture that exists within the
> structure of the mormon church, does, at salt lake city.
> Seattle could BECOME that furry mecca, or rather, a specific portion
> within Seattle could become that furry mecca.
> It would NOT, however, be furry exclusive.
> I apologize in advance if I cannot reply, because meetup.com is highly
> restricting my ability to send emails to this mailing list.
> I should also note that I'm not truly a fan of dictatorships, because
> finding a good dictator is, as you said, impossible.
> > ---------------
> > ~Amaroq Wolf
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alex Maurin <[address removed]>
> > To: [address removed]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29,[masked]:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions
> > I would tend to agree, Amaroq, that there's nothing wrong with what my
> > dad calls "Enlightened Self-Interest."
> > It means that although you recognize that all humans ultimately act in
> > their own self interest 99.8% of the time or whatever, you can delay
> > gratification, and IF you are patient enough to invest wisely, etc,
> > you can actually improve the quality of life for many people by "You
> > scratch my back, I scratch yours" type of deals.
> > Business, and by extension, corporations, are not evil by definition,
> > unless you're an agorist, who believes that chartering with a
> > government automatically makes you evil as an extension of that
> > government.
> > No, Although direct electronic democracy can theoretically be a good
> > thing, really, what we need is a GOOD dictator. The problem is "How do
> > we find a GOOD dictator?" which leads to "How do we ensure the
> > good dictator is actually a well-intentioned and competent person?"
> > I'm hoping that a dictatorship that's informed by up to the
> > millisecond news and information using a digital infrastructure for
> > feedback on decision-making and clear representation by every
> > significant group of society, we could build a REALLY EPIC
> > Space-Faring society and culture which really would colonize the
> > stars.
> > Enlightened self-interest is not bad, only myopic ignorant greed is
> > bad, where you ignorantly destroy your capital for short-term gains
> > when and kill the goose that lays the golden egg, along with every
> > cash cow. It's stupidity.
> > No, what you do is collar the cash cows and gold-laying gooses, treat
> > them nicely, but give them cell phones, insurance policies, and
> > gps-tracking collars, and make them feel supremely safe and content to
> > be in your household. Make them never want to leave.
> > This is the smart thing to do.
> > I do not know if I will ever make the kind of money that would be
> > required to pay SpaceX to deliver the colonization equipment to the
> > moon, but I'm damned if I'm not going to try. It's TOO COOL not to!
> > Arx Ferae here on Earth, though, will probably start off as just a
> > Furry Village within the Seattle metropolitan area. Start out as a
> > collection of buildings, and eventually "colonize" an entire skyline
> > condo building over time. Thing is, if I can make enough money, I
> > could help people pay off their mortgages, which would enable them to
> > do other things.
> > We'll see.
> > Actuary science is a pretty good career, but to make the truly big
> > bucks, I need to see if I can't break into investment banking.
> > Investment banking is buying and selling stocks and bonds, mutual
> > funds and the like, raising capital for corporations, and the buying
> > out and merging of corporations.
> > Since the Glass Steagall Banking Act of 1933 was repealed in 1999, you
> > can be ALL THREE: an insurance corporation, retail bank, and
> > investment bank all in one, thus concentrating the wealth as much as
> > possible
> > So long as you are wise, responsible, and judicious with the money
> > saved, concentrating the wealth in a single place like this is
> > theoretically a good thing, in that you can then make bigger deals and
> > give better rates to your clients.
> > A cooperative bank is a good idea, and I'll certainly look into it,
> > but I'm also looking at a hybrid system as well, where it's one third
> > consumer's cooperative, one third worker's cooperative, and one third
> > traditional joint-stock corporation.
> > We'll see.
> > I have not decided exactly what I want to do, but I'm considering the
> > concept of a geek/hacker and furry-oriented credit union that
> > eventually expands into a hybrid cooperative bank.
> > It would make more money than game middleware, as much fun as that
> > would be. No, why not reach for the stars?
> > So basically, my TENTATIVE plan is to become a financial actuary, do
> > that for about 10 years, build up money, then found a credit union
> > oriented around artists, geeks/hackers, and furries, make that my
> > niche to start out with, maybe even partner with DeviantArt or
> > Electronic Frontier Foundation? Along the next 10 years, I'd
> > eventually mutate the credit union into a hybrid semi-cooperative
> > bank and insurance corporation.
> > If I follow this plan, I would specialize in pet insurance, mortgages
> > and loans for housing cooperatives, and merges and acquisitions
> > related to cooperatives of any kind. I need a niche if I am to survive
> > financially.
> > So, we'll see how I'm going to make the money in order to reach for
> > the stars, but even if I DONT end up being capable of colonizing the
> > moon, I can still do a LOT of good, strengthening our culture and
> > society here on Earth doing my utter best to try.
> > On Wed, 29 Aug[masked]:56:56 -0400
> > Amaroq <[address removed]> wrote:
> > > There's something I want to say here that would probably be more
> > > fitting as a response to the previous topic. But it would be
> > > negative if I brought it up there, and positive if I brought it up
> > > here, so I choose to do it here.
> > >
> > > Someone said that greed is one of the things that will destroy the
> > > human race. But THIS is what greed really is. Just wanting something
> > > for yourself. Having an ambition and following it. If you remove all
> > > of the negatives that people always package in with that concept,
> > > greed is really a good thing. Greed brought us every innovation we
> > > have, and lifted our standard of living from the point where we were
> > > dying in our teens and twenties to the point where we can relax on
> > > over 100 degree days due to air conditioning, electricity, and we
> > > have this amazing system called the internet, and computers that
> > > we're using to instantly talk to each other right now. Etc etc etc
> > > etc etc.
> > >
> > > People wanting something for themselves and working for it is what
> > > lifted us up. Not what will destroy us. Whether it's Henry Ford
> > > inventing the assembly line, or his employees working on it.
> > > Everyone who wants something and works for it not only lifts
> > > themselves, but lifts society up as a secondary consequence. So
> > > dream big, and if you really think you can do it, pursue those
> > > dreams. Who knows. You might be the, or one of the, people who does
> > > finally bring the rest of us to the moon someday.
> > >
> > >
> > > (It's not in a bank's greedy self-interest to lend to people who
> > > can't pay it back. Because if the person doesn't pay it back, the
> > > bank loses money. It's traditionally the bank's own ass on the line
> > > when they lend, which means they have to be careful about who they
> > > lend it to. But government guaranteed loans, the existence of the
> > > Fed, and other interventions in the economy, made it so the banks
> > > didn't have to worry about going under if they made bad loans.
> > > Essentially, some goody two-shoes said "It's greedy and evil that
> > > banks won't lend to people who can't afford it", implemented a
> > > government policy that makes it so banks can/have to lend to those
> > > who can't afford it, and now we're blaming the banks instead of the
> > > government, where the blame really lies.)
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------
> > > ~Amaroq Wolf
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Keeko <[address removed]>
> > > To: [address removed]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29,[masked]:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions
> > >
> > >
> > > I like the idea. XD It's not a bad thing to have such lofty goals, I
> > > totally want to see moon colonies happen, and I wish you the best of
> > > luck! On Aug 28,[masked]:04 PM, "Alex Maurin" <[address removed]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > And now for something completely different:
> > > >
> > > >http://www.spacex.com/falcon_heavy.php
> > > >
> > > >What do you guys think about the idea of a lunar colony complete
> > > >with hotels and condos?
> > > >
> > > >Would you consider moving to the moon?
> > > >
> > > >The colonies would probably be underground and pressurized, and the
> > > >industry would largely the mining of titanium and exotic metals,
> > > >and maybe even helium-3.
> > > >
> > > >Although helium-3 is theoretical, the titanium export would bring
> > > >in the money necessary to build in enough manufacturing equipment
> > > >and planetary support to construct additional pylons-- i mean
> > > >factories on the moon, and allow us to build entire cities with
> > > >multiple mining operations across the lunar surface.
> > > >
> > > >Something I'm going to shoot for with my degree in mathematics is
> > > >to attempt building up enough capital to found a lunar colony.
> > > >
> > > >Yes, I know it's highly ambitious, but I have an actual shot at
> > > >doing it.
> > > >
> > > >With a degree in mathematics, i can balance between finance and
> > > >actuary science, and astrophysics and aeronautics.
> > > >
> > > >This way, i can make the money necessary to get the funding i need
> > > >to actually put together a business plan to colonize the moon.
> > > >
> > > >I can see it now: low gravity bouncing fursuiters parading in a
> > > >space hotel on the moon.. x3
> > --
> > Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to
> > everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> > http://www.meetup.com/furlife/ This message was sent by Alex Maurin
> > ([address removed]) from Furlife. To learn more about Alex Maurin,
> > visit his/her member profile:
> > http://www.meetup.com/furlife/members/60089702/ Set my mailing list
> > to email me
> > As they are sent
> > http://www.meetup.com/furlife/list_prefs/?pref=1
> > In one daily email
> > http://www.meetup.com/furlife/list_prefs/?pref=2
> > Don't send me mailing list messages
> > http://www.meetup.com/furlife/list_prefs/?pref=0
> > Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] |
> > [address removed]
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Alex Maurin ([address removed]) from Furlife.
> To learn more about Alex Maurin, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/furlife/members/60089702/
> Set my mailing list to email me
> As they are sent
> In one daily email
> Don't send me mailing list messages
> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]