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Re: [libertarian-349] Why I do not want Universal Healthcare

From: user 9.
Sent on: Friday, July 24, 2009 2:42 PM
Jason, I appreciate your follow up as it seems you're a good hearted man, interested in doing what is in the best interest for humanity.  However, I have concern with the premise of each argument you have.
 
First, your rational for contradiction with each of Aaron's stances is based on the thesis that what we currently have is not the best solution, thus government takeover is best".
 
At best, I would consider thought process naive. 
 
Second, "The country is already bankrupt...."  If you feel that things can not be fixed/improved because they are already bad. You can understand why I may disqualify your opinion as you are speaking from a platform of weak mindedness.  Those interested in politics are those interested in leadership.  To stand for what is right when situations are darkest.
 
Third, "Why do you hate immigrants?"  Assumptive. Argumentative. Unaware.  The use of situational morality is not a substitute for fundamental principle.  Which in the context of this conversation, the proposed plan reduces freedom and increases government,.  The question that you are yet to ask yourself is, "if healthcare is a right to receive, then who is required by law to give?"  Let this question settle and consider the full consequences of this.  The result is catastrophic.
 
 
My hope is to hear back in response to my concerns, Jason.  Perhaps, you will help clarify my thought process with insight and improved perspective.
 
Be well.
 
Mike 
 
 
Reason 1: It's not "FREE" healthcare
The country is already bankrupt.  At some point it doesn't matter whether the deficit is $1 trillion, or $10 trillion -- either way, we have no means to pay our own expenses, except by borrowing ever-greater sums from our erstwhile enemies overseas
 
Reason 2: Who gets the "Free" healthcare
 
Why do you hate immigrants?   Yeah, yeah, go on all you want about them being illegal -- but the reason there are so many illegal immigrants today, is that legal immigration to the US has become onerously difficult.  When my ancestors showed up on Ellis Island after the potato famine, all they had to do to become citizens was wait in a long-ass line.  That's why there was no problem with illegal immigration back then. 

Have you noticed that most immigrants -- illegal & legal alike -- do hard, valuable jobs?  Personally I would prefer that the people who work to maintain my city, prepare my food, and build our houses not be living in sickliness and misery. 

Good point about the illegals not paying income tax.  Your solution, I am going to guess, is to crack down and deport them all.  My solution is a little different:  Before we crack down on illegals, let's institute an amnesty, and give everyone who wants to become a citizen the opportunity to do so.  Change the law so it is once again simple and easy to become a law-abiding citizen.  Then, and only then, I will happily support a harsh crackdown on illegals. 
 
Reason 3: Under Obama's plan, there will be 50 MILLION more people added to the "healthcare community".
 
Ummm, dude..   have you ever actually used private health care?  My current provider -- Harvard Pilgrim -- easily rivals the federal government for bureaucracy, waste, hassle, and waiting.  Moreover, I work for a (very famous) private hospital, and I can confirm that they, too, are among the most shockingly inefficient organizations I have ever seen. 
The problem is, people usually consume healthcare services under duress -- when you go to the hospital for a heart attack, or even for a painful broken leg, you don't do price comparison shopping first.  Heck, even if you tried to do so, good luck getting the private hospitals to provide transpartent pricing info.  So there is no market discipline on the healthcare industry.  But since it is "private" (nevermind that the state still ends up paying a good chuck of the cost, directly or indirectly), there is no government discipline (political pressure, inspectors general, etc) either. 

Do you know anyone who has lived in a European country and received health care there, and also experienced the American private health care system?  Ask them which experience was better.
Reason 4: IT's the GOVERNMENT! THEY CAN'T RUN ANYTHING!
 
See above.  If we must have a huge bureacracy making healthcare decisions (which is what health insurance is all about), then I would rather it be a publicly-accountable government bureaucracy, rather than a completely-unaccountable private company bureaucracy.
Reason 5: You cannot Keep your old Healthcare!
Personally I don't have any desire to keep my current health insurance, or any previous insurance I have had.  They have all been bureaucratic nightmares.  Even when I worked for a big $$$ corporation, and had gold-plated health coverage, there were all sorts of insane paperwork hassles.  (Gold plated like this:  I walk into very fancy doctor's office on Park Ave in NYC, and ask if the doctor is accepting patients.  Receptionist looks me up & down, sneers, and says in a snippy tone, "let me see your insurance."  I hand her the card, and she reads it.   Suddenly her face turns bright & cheery, and she says, "Sure, the doctor is accepting patients.  Would you like to come in tomorrow?")  Moreover, that "private" gold-plated insurance was actually subsidized by the public in the form of tax benefits for the company.  Oh, and wait a minute, isn't the fact that some health coverage plans have greater access to care than others, itself prima facie proof that our current private system is already rationing care?
 
Reason 6: EUGENICS
Many of you do not know what this word means... go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
 
No real argument here. 

I wish there were more Libertarians whose main interest was social & political liberty, and fewer who were interested in perpetuating the current system of American cronie-capitalism.


 
 


From: Aaron <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, July 24,[masked]:30:02 PM
Subject: Re: [libertarian-349] Why I do not want Universal Healthcare

I think the definition of libertarian is less government more freedom. In this instance healthcare would be under government control and we would lose the freedom to choose.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Jason <[address removed]> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Aaron <[address removed]> wrote:
Reason 1: It's not "FREE" healthcare
Obama's plan is going to cost us over $1 Trillion dollars a year in tax money in order to get us all on the universal "free" healthcare. It used to be that our federal deficit was less than 1 trillion a year and now 1 government plan is $1 Trillion a year!!! How will we pay for this? How are we paying for anything with a nation of works with an unemployment rate of about 20%! Less workers = Less Taxmoney. Common Sense! This will further bankrupt our country.

The country is already bankrupt.  At some point it doesn't matter whether the deficit is $1 trillion, or $10 trillion -- either way, we have no means to pay our own expenses, except by borrowing ever-greater sums from our erstwhile enemies overseas.

 
Reason 2: Who gets the "Free" healthcare
WHo get's Obama's Free healthcare? EVERYONE... and if you don't want it... TOO FUCKING BAD... you will be taxed on your Income tax... you can't even buy better healthcare if you wanted to!! you are trapped with SHITTY healthcare! And, best of all, guess who else get's the "Free" healthcare... ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS... yes... people who don't even PAY TAXES to PAY FOR THE HEALTHCARE get FREE HEALTHCARE... I cannot believe this.

Why do you hate immigrants?   Yeah, yeah, go on all you want about them being illegal -- but the reason there are so many illegal immigrants today, is that legal immigration to the US has become onerously difficult.  When my ancestors showed up on Ellis Island after the potato famine, all they had to do to become citizens was wait in a long-ass line.  That's why there was no problem with illegal immigration back then. 

Have you noticed that most immigrants -- illegal & legal alike -- do hard, valuable jobs?  Personally I would prefer that the people who work to maintain my city, prepare my food, and build our houses not be living in sickliness and misery. 

Good point about the illegals not paying income tax.  Your solution, I am going to guess, is to crack down and deport them all.  My solution is a little different:  Before we crack down on illegals, let's institute an amnesty, and give everyone who wants to become a citizen the opportunity to do so.  Change the law so it is once again simple and easy to become a law-abiding citizen.  Then, and only then, I will happily support a harsh crackdown on illegals. 


 


Under Obama's plan, there will be 50 MILLION more people added to the "healthcare community". THis means that there will be roughly 50 million more people attempting to see doctors and going to the ER. This doesnt sound like a big deal except when you think about how we are not growing in the number of doctors or hospitals... that means the same infrastructure that we have in place now has to take in that many more people... What happens then? Well we have seen it in ENGLAND and CANADA... they have universal healthcare plans and citizens have been calling in talk shows telling their horror stories. One woman had to wait a year to even get an appointment to see her doctor! This also leads to rationing... and you not getting all the tests needed at your visits...


Ummm, dude..   have you ever actually used private health care?  My current provider -- Harvard Pilgrim -- easily rivals the federal government for bureaucracy, waste, hassle, and waiting.  Moreover, I work for a (very famous) private hospital, and I can confirm that they, too, are among the most shockingly inefficient organizations I have ever seen. 

The problem is, people usually consume healthcare services under duress -- when you go to the hospital for a heart attack, or even for a painful broken leg, you don't do price comparison shopping first.  Heck, even if you tried to do so, good luck getting the private hospitals to provide transpartent pricing info.  So there is no market discipline on the healthcare industry.  But since it is "private" (nevermind that the state still ends up paying a good chuck of the cost, directly or indirectly), there is no government discipline (political pressure, inspectors general, etc) either. 

Do you know anyone who has lived in a European country and received health care there, and also experienced the American private health care system?  Ask them which experience was better.



Reason 4: IT's the GOVERNMENT! THEY CAN'T RUN ANYTHING!
It's a fact that the government, once they get their slimy hands on any program, completely destroys it. Why is this? Because they are paid by large corporations (lobbyists) to insert laws and regulations into bills that will make the company huge amounts of money in exchange for campaign funding, endorsements and probably some other goodies... Yes, WE ARE BEING SOLD OUT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER... on not just healthcare but everything else.

See above.  If we must have a huge bureacracy making healthcare decisions (which is what health insurance is all about), then I would rather it be a publicly-accountable government bureaucracy, rather than a completely-unaccountable private company bureaucracy.


Reason 5: You cannot Keep your old Healthcare!
No matter what BARRY tells you, you will not be able to keep you current healthcare insurance... forever. If this bill passes, you will be able to keep your insurance as it is until something changes. This "something" means, if your rates go up, if you want to add someone to your plan, if you want to switch private plans, if you change jobs... if ANYTHING of this nature happens, your private health insurance is rendered void and you MUST then join the army of Obama-bots. not kidding.

Personally I don't have any desire to keep my current health insurance, or any previous insurance I have had.  They have all been bureaucratic nightmares.  Even when I worked for a big $$$ corporation, and had gold-plated health coverage, there were all sorts of insane paperwork hassles.  (Gold plated like this:  I walk into very fancy doctor's office on Park Ave in NYC, and ask if the doctor is accepting patients.  Receptionist looks me up & down, sneers, and says in a snippy tone, "let me see your insurance."  I hand her the card, and she reads it.   Suddenly her face turns bright & cheery, and she says, "Sure, the doctor is accepting patients.  Would you like to come in tomorrow?")  Moreover, that "private" gold-plated insurance was actually subsidized by the public in the form of tax benefits for the company.  Oh, and wait a minute, isn't the fact that some health coverage plans have greater access to care than others, itself prima facie proof that our current private system is already rationing care?
 
 
Reason 6: EUGENICS
Many of you do not know what this word means... go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

There is a larger force far beyond Obama that is pulling at his strings and controlling his every move. These are the offshore bankers with the names of Rockefellar and Rothchild. They are part of the Bilderberg Group and other global identities set to take over the world and continue their quest for a One World Government aka The New World Order. They are eugenicists, Hiter was an eugenicist. Infact they funded Hitler. I won't go into too much more detail about this but I want to warn you all that these people have been soft-killing us for decades... they insert chemicals into our food, water, and air causing cancer, aids, diabeties and other illnesses. I urge you all to NOT take the "mandatory" vaccines this fall. I have proof of all of this... if you want to know more, visit infowars.com or search eugenics.

No real argument here. 

I wish there were more Libertarians whose main interest was social & political liberty, and fewer who were interested in perpetuating the current system of American cronie-capitalism.






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