Mailing List Archive

Subject Sender Date
Re-Organization meeting on Internet Relay Chat Sunday 4pm freenode #nylinux - Hey everyone. Its been a while since we all got together in a chat room and talked about what we wanted to see and or do at the New York Linux meetup. So this Sunday August 3rd at 4pm fire up an IRC (internet Relay Chat) client and help decide t Matthew J. Aug 1, 2008 1:13 AM
Re: [linux-392] New Meetup: The Last HOPE hackers conference after party - Re: [linux-392] New Meetup: The Last HOPE hackers conference after party I will have no access to phone or email from 1:00pm EST user 4. Jul 20, 2008 2:08 PM
Re: [linux-392] New Meetup: The Last HOPE hackers conference after party - Preview not available Forest M. Jul 19, 2008 1:45 PM
New Meetup: The Last HOPE hackers conference after party - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York GNU/Linux Meetup Group! What: The Last HOPE hackers conference after party When: July 19,[masked]:00 PM Where: (A location has not been chosen yet.) Meetup Description: Gr Matthew J. Jul 19, 2008 1:14 PM
[linux-392] - also regarding ubuntu/linux business usability - - On this page https://blueprints.launchpad.n­et/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-small-b­usiness-server notice this link http://www.osv.org.au/index.cg­i?tid=161 for a list of applications which could be used in the SMB environment. They are not only limited to Linux badiane Jul 13, 2008 4:18 PM
OpenOffice - In light of some of the topics covered in yesterday 7/7/08's meeting. - I do apologize in advance for any duplication of links: http://www.tutorialsforopenoff­ice.org/category_index/spreads­heet.html http://www.idautomation.com/op­enoffice/ http://spreadsheets.about.com/­od/otherspreadsheets/ss/calc_f­ormulas.htm http://www. badiane Jul 8, 2008 8:37 PM
iphone - http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/­2008/07/exclusive-sneak.html +++ "Il est peu de vertus plus tristes que la r��signation ; elle transforme en fantasmes, r��veries contingentes, des projets qui s'��taient d'abord constitu��s comme volont badiane Jul 8, 2008 2:38 PM
Join us for a discussion of the legal impact of open source and open culture - Tonight (Tuesday, the 24th) we will be getting together with Fred Benenson of Creative Commons http://creativecommons.org/ to discuss the legal impact of open source and open culture. Fred co-found Matthew J. Jun 24, 2008 8:50 AM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - Oh cool. The doc I posted before mentioned 9i R2. Good to know it works with Oracle 10g XE which isn't ideal but at least mysql and postgres are a high priority. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Dan < Clyde G. Jun 20, 2008 5:42 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - Oracle XE is free: https://fedorahosted.org/spacewalk/wiki/HowToInstall TRAC for this project is prioritizing postgres and mysql compatibility: https://fedorahosted.org/spacewalk/wiki/TheRoadmap Clyde Goffe wrote: > Looks like spacewalk and Satelli Dan Jun 20, 2008 5:31 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - Looks like spacewalk and Satellite requires Oracle :-( http://www.redhat.com/docs/man­uals/satellite/Red_Ha Clyde G. Jun 20, 2008 5:25 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - This is awesome stuff.. I'm going to check it out as well. My environment could use this. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Chris Munns < [address removed] > wrote: Clyde G. Jun 20, 2008 5:06 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - Jon, I must have missed something at a recent event. Anyway, have you been playing with this? What are your initial impressions? Any gotchas? Thanks, - Chris Meetup Dan wrote: > I knew it! > > Jon Stanley wrote: >> And this is what Chris M. Jun 20, 2008 4:00 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - I knew it! Jon Stanley wrote: > And this is what I wanted to talk about and could not. > > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Dan wrote: > >> This is really key. >> >> Chris Munns wrote: >> >>> To any of the Fedor Dan Jun 20, 2008 3:50 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - And this is what I wanted to talk about and could not. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Dan wrote: > This is really key. > > Chris Munns wrote: >> >> To any of the Fedora/Centos folks out there, today some very good news > Jon S. Jun 20, 2008 3:41 PM
Re: [linux-392] RedHat opens Satellite service!! - This is really key. Chris Munns wrote: > To any of the Fedora/Centos folks out there, today some very good news > from RedHat. They have finally gone the right route and opened up > their RHN/Satellite product code base to the outside world. > Dan Jun 20, 2008 1:22 PM
RedHat opens Satellite service!! - To any of the Fedora/Centos folks out there, today some very good news from RedHat. They have finally gone the right route and opened up their RHN/Satellite product code base to the outside world. http://www.redhat.com/spacewal­k/ "Spacewalk is an Chris M. Jun 20, 2008 1:07 PM
Re: [linux-392] 64-bit install over 32-bit installation - Clyde, Two words: bad idea. If you keep your applications designed for 32bit on the 64bit system, they may not run correctly. Also, running software for 32bit on 64bit defeats the point of using 64bit architecture. Back up the data and configura Dan Jun 19, 2008 2:45 PM
Re: [linux-392] 64-bit install over 32-bit installation - My question is how safe is it to install over a 32-bit install of CentOS 5.1 with the 64-bit install of CentOS 5.1 but still keep all the data and applications on my partitions in tact? I'm almost positive t Varun M. Jun 19, 2008 2:27 PM
Re: [linux-392] 64-bit install over 32-bit installation - Hey Varun, There are 3 partitions. There are 2 Perc 6i/e RAID controllers (one Raid-1 and one Raid-10). LVM is configured and in use with 2 volume groups and 1 logical volume per group. This is a server and so no dual boot. Clyde G. Jun 19, 2008 2:11 PM
Re: [linux-392] 64-bit install over 32-bit installation - Hey Clyde, Can you provide more information about the setup, How many partitions do u have? Are they in a RAID setup? Do u want to have a dual boot with 32 bit and 64 bit or want to port files from 32 bit to 64 bit once updated. (moun Varun M. Jun 19, 2008 1:57 PM
64-bit install over 32-bit installation - Hey All, I'm running 32-bit version of CentOS 5.1 on one of my servers that has 2 quad core opteron processors. I'd like to install the 64-bit version on this machine but I don't want to overwrite or corrupt my existing partitions Clyde G. Jun 19, 2008 1:03 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - I don't have an explicit server in my case. The laptop acts as the server and the NAS drive as the client (from the program's perspective) So the laptop pushes the backup data on the NAS drive, at a scheduled time. Now the same laptop du Varun M. Jun 18, 2008 4:27 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - I was under the impression that a Linux machine would be your server and windows would be your clients. http://backuppc.sourceforge.ne­t/faq/BackupPC.html#step_5__cl­ient_setup If BackupPC is running on a Linux host and it's managing the storage space, badiane Jun 18, 2008 3:20 PM
Re: [linux-392] unix SA role - Hi, Nice to hear from you. I'm graduate student and searching for an internship in networking and system administration. I have attached my resume. So if you have any position related to my skill and experience so that I can work. user 7. Jun 17, 2008 10:55 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Dan wrote: > Just do an rsync -autr / / on cron > Its a lot cheaper. Make sure your permissions work correctly. I second that :) -- Axel Taferner [address removed] Axel T. Jun 17, 2008 6:32 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - backuppc does not sustain my needs http://backuppc.sourceforge.ne­t/faq/BackupPC.html#what_type_­of_storage_space_do_i_need Varun M. Jun 17, 2008 5:47 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - I would second that. --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Milosz Tanski wrote: > From: Milosz Tanski > Subject: Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux > To: [address removed] > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008, 4:48 PM > badiane Jun 17, 2008 5:06 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - I would put your projects on a CVS/SVN/git server, version control is designed for this. You might be able to extend it to do your config files, but rsync/tar might be good enough there. I use amanda for tape servers, I don't think it would do chris Jun 17, 2008 4:50 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - I would recommend BackupPC. It can be obtained from http://backuppc.sourceforge.ne­t Obviously it's open source, a few years back some friends convinced me to give it a go, I found that it worked pretty wel Milosz T. Jun 17, 2008 4:47 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - Hey Varun, Thanx for that. Anyone know of an easy way to back of virtualbox VSO machines. I'm running Linux Mint with virtualbox Windows XP as guest On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Varun Mehta wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm s Jonn N. Jun 17, 2008 4:08 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - Dar looks pretty nice. FYI there is kdar for those who are less familiar with scripting. spike grobstein wrote: > rsync is great if you want direct access to the files in case of > accidental deletion... but if you're backing up an entire unix sy Dan Jun 17, 2008 3:57 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - Well I did feel Bacula was a jet engine for a cycle, I don't want to back the whole system up, just data, the OS can be restored any time. I did look at rsync and pretty much serves my purpose as of now. Just want to test if Delta Copy will be able to Varun M. Jun 17, 2008 3:45 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - Hey Varun, Of the two you mentioned here I'm familiar with Bacula. Its a good solution and works well. I've only used it in a Linux only environment but I believe there's a Windows client as well. It requires a fair amount of time to read through Clyde G. Jun 17, 2008 3:22 PM
Re: [linux-392] Backup tool for Linux - Just do an rsync -autr / / on cron Its a lot cheaper. Make sure your permissions work correctly. Varun Mehta wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm setting up a small NAS server at home with automated nightly > backup of certain folders fro Dan Jun 17, 2008 3:15 PM
Backup tool for Linux - Hi All, I'm setting up a small NAS server at home with automated nightly backup of certain folders from my laptops to the NAS drives. Now I can either write a cron job for that, or use a market available solution, for them. I googled something Varun M. Jun 17, 2008 3:10 PM
Re: [linux-392] unix SA role - I'm sure you're well meaning, but we cannot allow any type of ad placement on this mailing list. Further posts will be moderated. Alan Burke wrote: > > My name is Alan Burke. I am the owner/technical recruiter for The BMW > Group, Inc. My organi Dan Jun 17, 2008 3:04 PM
unix SA role - user 7. Jun 17, 2008 2:52 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - There is also another angle to consider: ##############################­###### NAME nsswitch.conf - System Databases and Name Service Switch configuration file DESCRIPTION Various functions in the C Library need to be configured to w badiane Jun 17, 2008 2:49 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - From a security standpoint I would definitely agree that masking services on my network would be the way I'd want to go. The problem will probably start to happen when communicating with other networks and machine out of our control. It's like using t badiane Jun 17, 2008 12:42 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Something felt wrong about my answer and I went to confirm my suspicion. Here is the man page definition: ##############################­############## SERVICES(5) Linux P badiane Jun 16, 2008 4:57 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - /etc/services is used by inetd and xinetd mostly. To change the port of a daemon, use the server's conf file. Badiane badiane Jun 16, 2008 4:14 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - You really just need to pick an open port and use it. The servers you are sending mail too will be able to resolve the ports correctly Michele wrote: > > The server I���m dealing with is a remote server that I rent from a > hosting provider Dan Jun 11, 2008 12:07 PM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - user 4. Jun 11, 2008 11:45 AM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Hey Michele, Assuming that optonline is your ISP(judging from your email address), you can pay an extra 10 bucks a month for optimum boost and they'll open port 80 and 25 for you, as well as give you a boost in bandwidth. Then no need to Clyde G. Jun 11, 2008 11:12 AM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - You should actually generate a new submit.cf from submit.mc using m4 (sendmail cf files should be generated using m4 macros). It should be set to localhost now, which means a program sending mail will connect to port 25 on localhost. Then the chris Jun 11, 2008 10:58 AM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Michele < [address removed] > wrote: Luis M. Jun 11, 2008 9:57 AM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - I looked at /etc/mail/sendmail.cf. All it says is smtp: O DaemonPortOptions=Port=smtp,Ad­dr=[masked], Name=MTA On my network smtp was set to 25, which is not a viable port. So, I made stmp 26, because 25 is a blocked port. I don't want smtp to user 4. Jun 11, 2008 7:49 AM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - Are you actually receiving mail on the box? It will never work if you are not on the standard port. If you are just sending mail, I would try to get it to relay through your ISP's mail server. Many mail servers simply block the mail if chris Jun 10, 2008 2:36 PM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - user 4. Jun 10, 2008 12:27 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Are you running postfix for mails? (what service are u using for mails) -- Regards Varun Mehta http://varun.cjb.net 2008/6/10 David Rosenstrauch < Varun M. Jun 10, 2008 12:15 PM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Like I wrote, you should put /etc/services back the way it was, and then do it the correct way: figure out which smtp daemon you're running, update the port number in that daemon's config, and then restart the daemon (no reboot required). DR David R. Jun 10, 2008 11:55 AM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - I changed the smtp port from 25, because it was blocked on the network, to 26, rebooted and it works. So, what did I do wrong? -----Original Message----- From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of David Rosenstrauch Se user 4. Jun 10, 2008 11:25 AM
power controllers - http://www.geeks.com/details.a­sp?invtid=IP9258&cat=NET&cpc=N­ETbsc badiane Jun 10, 2008 11:03 AM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - That's actually *not* the right place to make such a change. That file is a reference file that several apps use to translate from a port number into a user-readable string of which app is using that port number. Changing it will *not* result in a David R. Jun 10, 2008 11:01 AM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Michele wrote: > Does anyone know which file on a linux server you would edit to change the > ports? > > > > Margaret Michele Different files for different daemons (and thus, ports). Which daemon's port are you interested in changing? D David R. Jun 10, 2008 10:59 AM
RE: [linux-392] Ports - user 4. Jun 10, 2008 9:49 AM
Re: [linux-392] Ports - Which ports do u want to change? Apache port can be changed in the apache conf file.. -- Regards Varun Mehta http://varun.cjb.net 2008/6/10 Michele < Varun M. Jun 10, 2008 9:30 AM
Ports - user 4. Jun 10, 2008 9:19 AM
Re: [linux-392] 15mbps/1mbps for $89, static IP, dry line - Don't know, but at that point one would check another service if there is a need for it. The other places that I've found are asking more for the same speed. In my experience with them their prices usually remain. I used to have them for a long while. badiane Jun 8, 2008 11:50 PM
Ubuntu Upgrade issue with Dell Vostro - Hi Bruce, Thank you for hosting last night. FYI Today I was able to recover my machine to 8.04. After my upgrade from 7.10 to 8.04 I had a problem with the detection of my ata drive, which prevented me from booting into 8.04. After performing a 'su Marco N. Jun 4, 2008 8:37 PM
New Meeting: Fedora release party and open infrastructure disucssion - Announcing a new meeting for The New York GNU/Linux Meetup Group! What: Fedora release party and open infrastructure disucssion When: Tuesday, June 10, 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Who should Jon S. Jun 4, 2008 7:05 PM
Re: [linux-392] 15mbps/1mbps for $89, static IP, dry line - What's the price after the year is up? On Jun 2, 2008, at 17:35, badiane wrote: > http://cyberonic.com is offering this deal with a one year > contract. I thought that those of us who might not want to deal > with veriz Luis M. Jun 2, 2008 6:00 PM
15mbps/1mbps for $89, static IP, dry line - http://cyberonic.com is offering this deal with a one year contract. I thought that those of us who might not want to deal with verizon's bills might want to take advantage of that deal. I think I might definitely do it. Speakeasy has it for $189. badiane Jun 2, 2008 5:34 PM
Re: [linux-392] hi guys! - Hi Badiane. I'm Graduate student of Electrical Engineering (Networking specialization). I have 2 years of experience in Networking and system administration. Right now I'm getting training from Sr. AIX and Linux administra user 7. May 28, 2008 11:05 PM
hi guys! - My job is looking for an intern who loves working with Linux, is at ease with the CLI and wants to learn. If anyone is interested let me know and I'll forward the info. Badiane badiane May 28, 2008 10:24 PM
New Meeting: Ubuntu for Beginners - Announcing a new meeting for The New York GNU/Linux Meetup Group! What: Ubuntu for Beginners When: Tuesday, June 3, 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Who should come: Anyone who wants to learn mor Bruce May 27, 2008 12:52 PM
Re: [linux-392] [JOB] Linux Sys Admin, New York, NY | 70-90k - Your company, "Open Source Staffing", is a temp agency. Meaning most of the 70-90k salary probably goes to you guys. Why can't your client just hire directly? I'm sure there are tons of good people out there looking for jobs. No need to Chris May 22, 2008 7:26 PM
isn't this cool - http://qalculate.sourceforge.n­et/ badiane May 21, 2008 2:27 PM
Serving High Performance Web Sites (Meeting this Thursday MAY 22 ) - Sorry I couldn't stay at the meeting last week, it looked great. I came back later but the it was already over. This meeting looks great, a talk on serving high performance web tuning using non-apache servers. I've talked to the speake Forest M. May 20, 2008 5:28 PM
Debian/Ubuntu OpenSSL exploit - Hey All, Many of you are probably already aware of a openssl vulnerability in Debian and Debian based systems such as Ubuntu. If not there's an advisory announcement from Ubuntu. Clyde G. May 15, 2008 12:33 PM
Meeting details changed: May meetup - Adobe Open Source with James Ward - I've updated the details for tomorrows meeting. There are now a few more spots to fill so grab them now. For more details, see the full listing: http://linux.meetup.com/392/ca­lendar/759309 Matthew J. May 14, 2008 5:39 PM
RE: RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - I did install emacs for which I barely remember the commands. But, I haven't touched lisp since college. Csh is a symbolic link to tsh. I'm rusty in unix too. I haven't even created a .login yet. Michele -----Original Message----- From: l user 4. May 13, 2008 3:45 PM
Re: RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - Too much shell religion for me! Everyone knows you should be doing inside Emacs with elisp! ;) [dodging tomatos] You might try installing tcsh, if you can. It is upwards compatible from csh, and might offer help. You mentioned filezilla. I've noti Bruce I. May 13, 2008 10:03 AM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - That happens often when I upload. But somehow, I think this has something to do with the file management system and uploaded documents and how they are recognized. The text inside seems to be good. I'll give it a try out of curiosity to see if it user 4. May 12, 2008 1:09 AM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - The problem is with line endings in unix and windows. You are probably editing and saving in notepad. run the following tr command to get rid of the \r you dont see in the file. tr -d '\015' rm_csh_new --Aaron chris wrote: > Well Aaron D May 11, 2008 11:49 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - Well proftpd should be your FTP *server*, I meant you should be able to set ASCII or BIN mode per transfer on your *client*. When I was on windows we used ws-ftp or cuteftp, they should be able to automatically detect the filetype. Most of my mach chris May 11, 2008 11:19 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - I looked at proftpd.conf, mentioned to me by Forest, is says binary, but sometimes I transfer binaries. I don't know that I would want to change that. I'll just deal with the work around. -----Original Message----- From: [address removed] [ma user 4. May 11, 2008 6:40 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - This has been a problem with other file names. For now, my work around was to create a file. Cut and paste the contents into the new file. Delete the old file and rename the new file to the old file name. I haven't really looked into the details user 4. May 11, 2008 6:21 PM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - Try a `dos2unix <file>` and try again. On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 1:30 PM, chris < [address removed] > wrote: Vishnu May 11, 2008 3:46 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - Probably needs to be sent as ASCII instead of BIN, since it's a plain text script. But if it broke suddenly I would be suspicious of a rouge filename getting matched. --- Michele wrote: > Well the script was in a bin wi chris May 11, 2008 1:30 PM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - Open the script in vi and type :set list (in escape mode) do you see any control characters? --Aaron Aaron D May 11, 2008 12:28 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - Well the script was in a bin with 700. I would have rewritten it a little, but I could get the thing working. It's a linux file transfer problem. For the life of me, I can't remember the trick I used to use to that. -----Original Message---- user 4. May 11, 2008 12:24 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - user 4. May 11, 2008 12:06 PM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - Well you're getting an error from csh (the Usage error), so I don't think you deleted it. Maybe you have a file with a space, quote, or other special character that is messing up the loop? I would also try to come up with a perl/python/ruby script chris May 11, 2008 12:06 PM
RE: [linux-392] csh won't run - user 4. May 11, 2008 12:03 PM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - One shell to rule them all. ;-) On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Aaron D < [address removed] > wrote: Forest M. May 11, 2008 10:40 AM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - you mean she ran as root and blew away c shell I guess shell have to use bash now :) --Aaron Aaron D May 11, 2008 2:40 AM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - Aaron, please re-read her email carefully. She stated her c shell and her c shell script were working previously. There's at least one other way to mistype that command that would have the effect of removing the shell. -Fores Forest M. May 11, 2008 2:10 AM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - type locate csh. or which csh it should return /bin/csh If not csh is probably not installed on the machine. I'm running ubuntu and I dont have csh. Why not use bash. better yet write a perl script in 10 lines. --Aaron Aaron D May 11, 2008 2:05 AM
Re: [linux-392] csh won't run - On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Michele < [address removed] > wrote: Forest M. May 11, 2008 2:03 AM
csh won't run - user 4. May 11, 2008 1:49 AM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Smugness says what? Dan Colish {917}[masked] On Apr 25, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Mariano Malisani < mariano.m Dan Apr 26, 2008 7:28 AM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Chris Apr 26, 2008 12:10 AM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Mariano M. Apr 25, 2008 7:48 PM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Clyde G. Apr 25, 2008 7:44 PM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Anybody searching for a desktop support job? --- armando wrote: > GET A JOB ! > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Chris Munns > wrote: > > > http://www.dellideastorm.com/ > > > > Supposedly they are fo user 2. Apr 25, 2008 7:32 PM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Armando F. Apr 25, 2008 7:26 PM
Re: [linux-392] My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Chris M. Apr 25, 2008 1:50 PM
My Letter to Michael Dell - Preview not available Bruce Apr 25, 2008 1:47 PM

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