London Vegan Meetup Message Board › This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

A former member
Post #: 15
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 61
I don't have time to cover everything. But just a couple of points that I need to address...

His books aside, if you look at Francione's interactions with others (e.g. blocking and banning other vegans who dare to offer an alternative viewpoint on Facebook) you will see that he does alienate people. Surely it would be better to engage with them? That's hardly him educating them in a peaceful way...

You say that all that has been done in the name of animal welfarism is to make the business more profitable, but that's simply not true. Some animals now have less horrific lives. Though clearly there's much, much more to do.

Also getting die hard meat eaters on to the welfarist bandwagon can be the first step towards abolition. If we can get them to care about animals a little, that gives us something we can build upon. Once the egg-eater goes free-range, we can educate them about male chicks, for example. And for those who do see veganism as hard, this step by step approach can be useful. I've volunteered for Vegan Campaigns' Vegan Pledge for the last five years or so. This encourages people to make an overnight switch to a vegan diet - albeit only for a month (though naturally we hope they'll continue afterwards!) While this approach works for many people, I also encounter those who need to take a much slower step-by-step approach.

One of the reasons that pedophilia and animal abuse require different approaches is that society at large accepts that pedophilia is wrong, whereas it does not yet accept that animal abuse is wrong. Had you been alive at the time when girls as young as 12 were being married off in the UK, you would have no doubt pushed for a raising of the age of consent. But if there was no chance of this happening, there would have been other things you could have done to improve the lives of such children, which society at large might have been ready to accept. And I believe that such things would have been worth doing. It's not always all or nothing. Especially when you can't have "all"...

Of course, we should campaign for abolition. And there are individuals who will be influenced by such campaigns, and who will decide to abandon animal exploitation.

But most will not. Society isn't ready to do that. We can (and should) encourage it. We can help make it happen more quickly. But it's still not going to happen any time soon.

So should we just ignore those animals who are suffering in the meantime? I think not. While society may not be ready to abandon exploitation, it is ready to take steps to improve the lives of exploited animals. So let's make their lives a little less horrific until we can free them completely.

So, yes, we should be abolitionists. But I think we can, and probably should, be welfarists too...
A former member
Post #: 16
Regarding Francione blocking other vegans who have a different view point...I can't agree with that. Welfare people, vegan? or perhaps really not that vegan (has a large number of people working for welfare organizations are not vegan.) have gone to sites (not just Francione) to create disorder and misinterpret the abolitionism approach in order to mislead others who are looking for information...

I strongly believe this is actually done with intention when you actually see what's going on with these charities and people who claim they are fighting for the just have to go and read the charities reports, they actually publish this information on their websites etc...

The charities should make clear that it is the abolition that they are working for, but if you read their statements they are not saying this, they are interested in regulating the exploitation of the animals not abolish it!!!

Show me a statement from a charity who clearly states this!!! Please!

If people don't feel ready to go on a vegan diet straight away, we should not be telling them to egg free range eggs, or be vegetarian because that does not address the issue why we want they to be vegan in the first instance... We should tell them then, to go vegan by stages, and simply like Francione and other explain, be vegan at breakfast for some time, after some weeks people would have find out that it was really easy step and then could go vegan for breakfast and dinner, and finally go vegan breakfast, lunch and dinner, and there you have it, they are vegan...

Now to tell people that free range eggs are better than caged ones, it is absolutely wrong, because it is misleading people...anyone who thinks this is the facts should do some research about free range eggs...

are the male chicks not going to be ground up alive on a free range farm? is the farmer going to look after millions of baby chicks who don't lay eggs for ethical reasons? and where is the last destination of the chicken who lays eggs? I think this is what we should be telling people so that they can make an informed decision...I believe most people who know about the facts will turn Vegan if presented with the facts!!!

http://peacefulprairi...­ here some videos and information about the so called free range eggs

also I would like to know what significant victories have been own for the animals?

you are right about we cannot really equate children with animals because children are not seen as property as animals are in that aspect...but the analogy of treat someone nicer instead of abolish the torture/abuse is analogue...­

A former member
Post #: 17
John Mackey
Chief Executive Officer
Whole Foods Market
500 Bowie Street
Austin, TX 78703

January 24, 2005

Dear John,

The undersigned animal welfare, animal protection and animal rights organizations would like to express their appreciation and support for the pioneering initiative being taken by Whole
Foods Market in setting Farm Animal Compassionate Standards. We hope and expect that these standards will improve the lives of millions of animals.

Animal Rights International (ARI)
Animal Welfare Institute (AWI)
Animal Place
Animal Protection Institute (API)
Association of Vets for Animal Rights (AVAR)
Bay Area Vegetarians
Christian Vegetarian Association
Compassion Over Killing (COK)
Doris Day Animal League
East Bay Animal Advocates
Farm Sanctuary
Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA)
Mercy for Animals
Northwest In Defense of Animals
Vegan Outreach


Peter Singer
President, Animal Rights International

source: http://www.abolitioni...­
A former member
Post #: 18
Peter Singer says openly that it is fine to kill and consume animals as long as the animals are treated "nicely" before killing them...

There is not abolition on their minds!! and they don't hide it either...
A former member
Post #: 19
the egg matters

Ben C.
user 63241732
London, GB
Post #: 3
I see your point Ruth but I still feel it lacks a degree of realism. I'm not sure the paedophilia analogy is overly appropriate. If it was rife, then we should support better support for abused children. How often and how easy it is for children to be abused, and how the victims are treated post abuse are separate issues. In Afghanistan until recently the use of young dancing boys for entertainment and casual sex was socially accepted. The issue hasn't changed overnight and only through slow hard work is it starting to become more and more taboo and thus becoming an underground industry. But my point is, the people didn't just decide to stigmatise the issue overnight. I do tend to fall in line with Robb and feel we should all be proud of the efforts we're all making and accept that we are bound to get things wrong from time to time.
user 11012408
London, GB
Post #: 10
I was surprised to see that CIWF are promoting the London Vegan Pledge on their facebook page!
user 74140172
London, GB
Post #: 1
But if animal rights advocates always took an abolitionist and not a welfarist approach, then we would still have veal crates, for instance. How could anyone who cares about animals possibly want that?? Do we not care how much the animal suffers? If we can't stop the suffering completely, shouldn't we act to minimise it? And the comparison with paedophilia is ridiculous. Paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Meat eating is a social habit.
user 51976132
London, GB
Post #: 10
Never stop thinking about the animals!
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