addressalign-toparrow-leftarrow-rightbackbellblockcalendarcameraccwcheckchevron-downchevron-leftchevron-rightchevron-small-downchevron-small-leftchevron-small-rightchevron-small-upchevron-upcircle-with-checkcircle-with-crosscircle-with-pluscrossdots-three-verticaleditemptyheartexporteye-with-lineeyefacebookfolderfullheartglobegmailgooglegroupshelp-with-circleimageimagesinstagramFill 1linklocation-pinm-swarmSearchmailmessagesminusmoremuplabelShape 3 + Rectangle 1ShapeoutlookpersonJoin Group on CardStartprice-ribbonprintShapeShapeShapeShapeImported LayersImported LayersImported Layersshieldstartickettrashtriangle-downtriangle-uptwitteruserwarningyahoo

London Vegan Meetup Message Board › This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

Lesley D.
Lesleyvegandove
Hampton, GB
Post #: 183
CIWF was founded by a dairy farmer (look that up Ben if you didn't know about it, his name is Peter Roberts), so it seems clear to me that all they want to do is make animal exploitation slightly more palatable to the public, if done in certain ways, to keep convincing them it is OK to use animals, to keep the farmers in business, and actually oppose abolitionism. As veganism increases so the opposition have to think up cleverer ways.. I believe you've been hoodwinked Ben.
A former member
Post #: 21
Can someone actually tell me what has been done significantly for animals in the past 200 years?
A former member
Post #: 22
Rodrigo, the fact that they took the veal's from the veal crates did not improve anything on the veal's life...they did that because the studies by the department of agriculture shows that by given a little bit more space to the animals and allow them some contact, they can profit more, because costs go down, and veal's are less stress, less ill, thus it provides a more profitable way to have veal meat!!!!

THIS IS WRITTEN ON THE FACTORY FARMS STUDIES!!!!

A former member
Post #: 23
IN FACT, ALL OTHER SO CALLED IMPROVEMENTS ARE WELL DOCUMENTED ON THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY JOURNALS SHOWING THAT IT BENEFITS THE PRODUCER BY REDUCING COSTS!!!

THE EU (EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSION) HAS SAID THAT THEY WILL NOT HAVE ANY MORE OF THE TRADITIONAL FACTORY FARM MODEL, BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY AFFECTS THE PROFITS!!!!
Rodrigo
user 74140172
London, GB
Post #: 2
There's really no need to write in capital letters. Veal crates were banned and the veals were allowed more space and contact - and you say this did not improve the calves' lives at all? Of course their lives improved. Because being able to move around is better than not being able to move around. Why are you so concerned about farmers' profits? Farming is generally very unprofitable anyway, which is why the industry is so heavily subsidised. Are you saying that if all animal welfare legislation were repealed, you wouldn't care?
A former member
Post #: 24
YOU MUST BE KIDDING??!!! MAN, YOUR STATEMENTS ARE SOCKING...FARMERS DON'T HAVE PROFITS???YOU MUST BE OUT OF YOUR MIND...SO TO YOU THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY CHARITIES? LIKE THE BANKER!!!

YOU CALL THIS AN IMPROVEMENT? THE FACT THAT THEY TOOK THEM OUT OF THE CRATES TO HAVE LESS ILLNESS, INJURY AMONG THE WORKER, LESS VETERINARY COSTS, MEDICINES?
NO WONDER THE STATE OF ANIMALS RIGHTS TODAY IS WHAT IT IS?

I AM SURE YOU HAVE SOME HIDDEN BUSINESS ;))) YOU ARE SO PROTECTIVE OF THE FARMERS WHO RUN AT LOST LOL LOL
A former member
Post #: 25
OBVIOUISLY RODRIGO YOU ARE ONE OF THESE PR'S THAT ARE MENTION ON THIS VIDEO...

https://www.youtube.c...­

IT'S A SHAME THAT THERE IS SO MUCH SABOTAGE ON THE ANIMALS RIGHTS MOVEMENT...
Ben C.
user 63241732
Bristol, GB
Post #: 4
Ruth, it's great that you're so passionate about animal rights, it's that sort of passion that gets things done, but i don't think getting so angry at other vegans is at all productive. Everything in this world is relative. For minorities like us, small victories can be big victories and we should celebrate them rather than criticise them for not being good enough. I agree that being vegetarian isn't ideal for example but converting someone into a vegetarian = less animals eaten. If someone cares enough to go veggie but not vegan then I would love to see them do so. I fear that if you were to speak to them about why that isn't good enough you could end up scaring them off the idea completely. Thus one would-be veggie now a meat eater = more animals killed. Plus, as was mentioned earlier once someone becomes veggie they're far more susceptible to becoming vegan later in life. As happened to me and many others in this group. Also, with regards to farming improvements, farming practices have obviously got worse over the last couple hundred years but this is going to be for a myriad of reasons, not least the demand for cheap milk and eggs etc and the prevalence of "efficient" production methods. Where animal rights people have taken out veal crates, battery hens etc, this is a victory in the face of adversity. Sure conditions might continue to decline in the whole but every victory is important because each one WILL improve the lives, in some small way, of some unfortunate souls who were born as "livestock". I personally don't care if the farmer profits. If anything it's good when the farmer profits from a welfare improvement because it stops them having an incentive to campaign against it or circumvent it. However you feel about it we live in a capitalist world and thus money being spent on better things is better than money being spent on worse things. It's by this logic that I also refuse to condemn Quorn. While they are probably the worst example of vegetarian food, that company is probably single handedly responsible for a huge quantity of animals not being slaughtered through the mainstream marketing of vegetarian and health food. They could be better, they could do more, but these victories are not insignificant and we should celebrate them.

As for CIWF, thanks Lesley. I'm not going to do anything rash but I should certainly do some more research. Thank you.
Lesley D.
Lesleyvegandove
Hampton, GB
Post #: 184
I definitely condemn Quorn because by containing eggs they are in fact responsible for the breeding and slaughtering of hens (once they stop laying enough to be profitable) and the male chicks killed soon after hatching - and they have done this for many years even knowing it is possible for them to be vegan. I can't understand ppl condemning the meat industry and not feeling the same about Quorn. Just because it's not flesh doesn't mean animals don't die for it, and for those animals it does not matter if they are eaten or if they are just "by-products" thrown away, they still die so the product can exist and be profitable, so the result for them is exactly the same. I think Quorn is a massive con, helping keeping ppl supporting animal farming which always sees animals as disposable or usable things. I always tell ppl about Redwoods and Frys and other vegan alternatives. I never would even tell anyone about Quorn if they're thinking of going veggie, might as well steer them in the vegan direction right from the start!
Ben C.
user 63241732
Bristol, GB
Post #: 5
Hi Lesley. Believe it our not, I do agree with you. However my point is that far fewer animals would die because of Quorn than just eating real animals. The flesh of an animal lasts just one meal whereas I imagine on average one male chick would die per laying lifespan of one female chicken (assuming that there are an equal number of male and female chicks). That logic is probably flawed but I'd struggle to believe that eating Quorn isn't comparatively much better for the animal kingdom than eating chicken. I don't eat Quorn but i celebrate the work they've done to mainstream vegetarian food and lifestyle because each Quorn fillet eaten is better than a chickens breast on my opinion. I'd be ecstatic if Fry's or Redwood one day took over Quorn in the supermarket freezers but until a more ethical company can succeed as Quorn has, we should be happy that at least one vegetarian brand has become mainstream. It's all a step in the right direction in my eyes. We're not going to build utopia overnight.
Powered by mvnForum

Donation

GBP5.00 /year (suggested)

This covers: Third party costs incurred by the group (but not Meetup.com's "organiser dues").

Payment is accepted using:

  • PayPal

Refunds are not offered for this Meetup.

Our Sponsors

  • Vegetarian Guides

    Vegetarian/Vegan Guides to London, Britain, Europe and more

  • Shambhu's

    Need delicious lovingly-produced vegan catering for your special event?

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy