Re: [physicsnorthyork] Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment

From: Larry S.
Sent on: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:56 PM
Gary, if this is the same Dave that I met a couple of months ago, he wasn't being sarcastic. I agree that, via text, it could be taken that way. But I had occasion to mention to him that when Kaluza reformulated General Relativity in 5 dimensions, it turned out that electromagnetism was a (5th dimensional) consequence of gravity. And his reaction was comparable. He didn't use the words "Where have I been...", it was more like "This isn't something I've ever heard of before; I've learned something". And the tone of voice wasn't sarcastic at all.

So maybe you can cut him a bit of slack. It's just his way of phrasing things, and sometimes these things don't come across well in emails.

And while I'm here, let's have a bit of fun, trying to blow Dave's mind even further.

One possibility that Feynman/Wheeler discussed was the idea that anti-matter is just ordinary matter moving backwards in time. So, for example, maybe a positron is just an electron traveling backwards in time.


On 11/13/2013 6:16 PM, Gary Graham wrote:
You seem to have ignored almost everything I said. Did you even look up Wheeler-Feynman? Also, your sarcasm ("Where have I been that I missed such a profound discovery?") is uncalled for. Such cheap tactics have no intellectual content whatsoever; they're a little bit like barking. I thought we were above that here.
 
Not interested in corresponding further with you.
 
If anyone out there would like to have a more meaningful discussion, pls, I welcome it. Personal attacks, however, are unwelcome.

 

From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [physicsnorthyork] Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment
To: [address removed]
Date: Wed, 13 Nov[masked]:54:27 -0500

"Radiative propagation involves waves travelling backwards in time"?
Where have I been that I missed such a profound discovery?
Anyway, like I said, since I know of nothing travelling backwards in time, and since I know scientific knowledge has often been unaware of subtle variables, I stand by my opinion. However, if you have solid evidence for anything travelling backwards in time, it would make for an interesting NYPhysics meeting!

Sent from my iPod

On[masked], at 12:51, Gary Graham <[address removed]> wrote:

The most commonly accepted model for radiative propagation involves waves travelling backwards in time (see Wheeler-Feynman).

Apart from saying you "know of no evidence" of backwards time travel, which is I think something of an argument (though not a very compelling one), you have merely repeated what you said in the first post: there you say other explanations (such as hidden variables) are "more plausible," here you say that backwards time travel explanations are "less likely" (presumably than your hidden variables suggestion). Sorry to be a stickler, but you really haven't answered the question (except for the "no evidence" part, which is false).

You seem to be appealing to something like intuition, or common sense. But these things can both be misleading, or just plain wrong, especially in the realm of theoretical physics, as I'm sure you know. Something a little more substantial is required, I think.

You and Bohm may be right about hidden variables, of course, but Bohm's model poses its own challenges: it violates ontological parsimony, for example, in a way that the time travel model doesn't. My point is that your criterion for preferring the former over the latter isn't very scientific: it seems to me like something of an unjustified bias.

Pls understand, this isn't a personal attack at all, just a criticism of your position.


Sent from my iPad

On Nov 13, 2013, at 12:25 PM, "David" <[address removed]> wrote:

Travelling back in time seems less likely than the photon having properties that we do not understand.

Historically, there have been countless situations where we did not understand what was going on regarding some phenomenon. 
I do not know of any evidence for anything going back in time.

Therefore, I think some unknown factor is a more plausible explanation than the photon going back in time. 
Dave :)

Sent from my iPod

On[masked], at 12:15, Gary Graham <[address removed]> wrote:

Very interested in knowing why you say "more plausible." I'm not being frivolous, I really want to know.

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:25 PM, "David" <[address removed]> wrote:


The delayed choice results suggests that the photon has hidden variables that make it appear as a particle when there is no beam splitter, and makes it appear as a wave when there is a beam splitter.
This seems more plausible than the idea that by adding the beam splitter the photon goes back in time and becomes a wave.
Cheers,
Dave
PS. Very, very interesting stuff. David Bohm has suggestions in his book 'Causality and Chance in the New Physics' which address this issue. Maybe we should all read his book and then discuss?
----- Original Message -----
From: Mohsen
To:




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David ([address removed]) from North York Physics Group.
To learn more about David, visit his/her member profile
To report abuse or block this person, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Gary Graham ([address removed]) from North York Physics Group.
To learn more about Gary Graham, visit his/her member profile
To report abuse or block this person, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David ([address removed]) from North York Physics Group.
To learn more about David, visit his/her member profile
To report abuse or block this person, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Gary Graham ([address removed]) from North York Physics Group.
To learn more about Gary Graham, visit his/her member profile
To report abuse or block this person, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

Our Sponsors

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy