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Re: [newtech-1] No Coders left in America? response

From: Devon M.
Sent on: Monday, February 25, 2013 3:20 PM
The lack of pay elasticity is a symptom of the problem.  I used to be a coder and loved doing it - I still code every day for my own work and amusement - but, at some point, my pay as a coder did not keep up with my aspirations, so I left that ghetto.

Part of the pay problem is the singular focus on pay as a measure of value - coding is hard to do, even poorly, and very hard to do well.  However, most people have no idea how to measure the quality of what a coder does - most can't even frame the question except in vague terms like "get my work done well and quickly".  We all know the unit of measure for pay - what's the unit of measure for code quality?

Another problem with even opening the quality debate is the widespread notion that anyone can code - only true if we ignore quality.  It's probably not true that anyone can code (if you mean "code well") - see this: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf .


On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Charles <[address removed]> wrote:
Andy,

No reason to try to personally attack or insult me.  (But I am flattered you would go to effort to look me up on Linkedin even if it was to insult me.)   Stick to topic.....
My comment did not say .NET was 4%.  So your comment is void of any value.

The ".NET shortage" is because the pay rate is lower than for Java.   http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/tech-job-site-dice-reports-shortage-of-net-developers/
Again, if there was such a shortage the pay would go up.  If employers refuse to adjust to the market demands and offer more pay, then this is not really a shortage.  This is a just a shortage of people willing to work cheap for the given market conditions.  




From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [newtech-1] No Coders left in America? response
To: [address removed]
Date: Mon, 25 Feb[masked]:11:55 -0500


Charles,

I think you got lost in missing the forest for your language biased trees. 4% is the figure for the field as a whole, not .NET specific, but even so, .NET still leads as one of the tightest and most in demand labor pools in the US right now.

I hope you don't miss those sorts of details in your job as director of technology solutions, that sort of thing can't make for a long career.

∞ Andy Badera
∞ This email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private
∞ Google me: http://www.google.com/search?q=andrew%20badera


On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Charles <[address removed]> wrote:
There is a lot of good information here.  This has been stated many times...  the success of offshore is very low.  People are lured by the low hourly rates but overlook the high turnover rate and the culture of less responsibility, less ownership, less creativity and less entrepreneurship.  Successful offshore efforts only seem to occurs when they are being managed very closely with someone with project management and technical management skills.  It would appear from this information, that a non-technical person who wants to utilize overseas labor will have a very low success rate indeed.  

Being female and non-technical....the Indian culture of "yes" will certainly get the ball rolling.  However, I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the negative reactions of American coders.  I would look at their reactions as a reality check in some ways.  Your idea could be amazing but it just might not be... and the response from an American coder might be valid and not based on sexism.  And yes, American coder are not the most polished so they tell it like it is.  

I think if you want cheap labor, find an American student studying computer science.  This should be a great source of cheap labor.

I think it is sad we always want to resort to offshoring when we have record unemployment here.  Yes, the reason we have high unemployment is due to offshoring - its simple math - each American job displace by foreign labor = one more unemployed person.    Every failed overseas effort is making foreign competition better while putting Americans out of work.    I think this site should be encouraging the technology of NYC -  not trying to destroy it.

.NET..... I'm not so sure the employment of .NET is so low.  Also, there are many "C" coders that can quickly learn .NET.  The career of a coder is always about learning new languages and systems.   A team of three does not need to have everyone experts on .NET.  It could easily comprise one .NET and two other C coders.   I think this is a lot safer than an overseas effort.  




From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [newtech-1] No Coders left in America?
Date: Mon, 25 Feb[masked]:03:49 -0500

I have to stick up for Kimberly here for a minute.  It is VERY difficult to get coders to talk to you in any meaningful way if you're a non-technical founder.  And I'm not saying everyone's a sexist, but I believe it's even harder if you're female and non-technical. 

There are a million reasons why, and I don't have the time or energy to unpack them all right now, but the bottom line is that it's not about access to an email list of available talent, or about unemployment rates.  It's about finding a partner who's interested in, sees the value of, and is willing to work alongside a non-technical founder.



On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Charles <[address removed]> wrote:
Let me see if I understand this....
We are on a distribution of over 30,000 technologists.  We have record high unemployment in the US.
And we are concluding there are no coders left in America so the only options are sending the work to India.  Is that what I just read?

Charles


From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [newtech-1] Indian Coders
To: [address removed]
Date: Mon, 25 Feb[masked]:33:59 -0500

Hi Kimberly,
I have my own team and am following   similar kind of strategy.
If you like email me and we can talk offline. I do have a few sites completed check this one www.iseozone.com


Thanks,
Apurva

On Feb 25, 2013, at 10:44, "K. Lane" <[address removed]> wrote:

Good Morning Everyone,

I'm sure this question gets asked from time-to-time: does anyone have experience using Indian programmers/coders.  I'm bootstrapping right now, have tried the "sweat equity" route to find a coder/programmer, and it hasn't really gone well.
At this point, in order to develop a minimum viable product, I'm willing to scrape up funds from somewhere and just outsource the job overseas.

Thanks,

Kimberly

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Phone: (917)[masked] * Fax: (718)[masked]

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