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RE: [newtech-1] Lean In

From: Carrie
Sent on: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:08 PM

Richard, honestly, that level of discourse is beneath this group.  My comment was not “sneaky,” but assumed you were intelligent enough to understand an indirect point.  Let me make that point more clearly:  the personal attacks you continuously make on this board are uncalled for.  They degrade professional conversations, they are counter-productive, and they deter people from actively participating.  Since there appears be some confusion over what a personal attack is, let me clarify it for you:  ad hominem arguments attack someone’s traits rather than their argument.  They are not only a logical fallacy, they are professionally inappropriate.  Feel free to read more here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

I chose to post this rather than email you privately because I would like that point to be heard by others who engage in the same type of behavior.  I am constantly surprised that intelligent people resort to personal cattiness- the more absurd you find someone’s argument, the more easily you should be able to dismantle it intellectually.  As for my original concluding comment, I hoped a gentle ribbing about the snarkiness on this email list might improve things.  Clearly that was a mistake, and I hope this direct approach is more effective. 

 

I must say, it’s ironic that you think I didn’t read your emails and assumed your position when you directly admitted that you did exactly that.  Further ironic that you wrote, “People will read what's written up until the point their mind has triggered an emotional respond [sic] to what they believe is being said, stop reading and insist on something that's not true.”   If you had not stopped reading  you would see that I responded- directly and unemotionally- to each of your points (after having read and considered them carefully).  And no, my emails are not the length of tweets because I think serious topics deserve the respect of complete, developed arguments.  I actually enjoy thoughtful, intellectual debate- with both men and women- and I appreciate Dean starting this conversation. 

 

I cannot imagine what gave you the impression I am angry, particularly with men.  I believe I stated that I have enjoyed career success in male-dominated fields, and I have been able to start and fund my own company in part because of the opportunities I was given by male superiors (on top of that, I am a Southern, football-loving newlywed and spend far too much money on my bras to ever consider burning them).  The only thing I am emotional about is the fact that there can’t be a thoughtful, intelligent conversation about the gender-specific delta in corporate leadership without women being accused of being angry, bitter, and unsuccessful- that makes me sad.  It makes far too many women hesitate to participate in the conversation (including me prior to this email chain) and prevents us from improving things for women in the future.   

 

I’ve been fortunate (or not, depending on your view I suppose) to have the personality and circumstances that allowed me to avoid the set-backs other women have faced.  That doesn’t mean I can’t comment on issues I see that could be addressed.  The only dog I have in this fight is a beautiful four year old niece who just told me she plans to build an app that will allow her to run the world (wisely, she’s keeping the details close to her vest).  I hope it’s a very long time before someone calls her a control freak and discourages her from speaking up.

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of rburton
Sent: Saturday, March 16,[masked]:28 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [newtech-1] Lean In

 

What kind of response do you think she was seeking with her statement? By the way, good job on trying to be sneaky with your personal attack much like Cynthia.

 

I stand by my opinions expressed in this mailing list. If you or Cynthia take disagree with my opinion, I have no issue with that. Cynthia's remark about how I should respond to an individual person was done to ignite such a response. If Cynthia wanted to address me personally, she has my e-mail and could e-mail me directly.

 

You've demonstrated the same behavior to ignite emotion, sadly your e-mail was by far to long to read.

 

I honestly believe that you and Cynthia are so caught up on some emotional anger of male vs. female that you didn't actually read my e-mails, but assumed you knew my position.

 

Your last e-mail was a complete failure because do you recall your attempt to insult all the men on the mailing list?

 

"I’d love to see a discussion of these (important) nuances, but I suspect the androgen balance on this list might favor snarky aggression instead."

 

Kudos and good night. You and Cynthia have my personal e-mail, feel free to contact me one on one if you so desire to continue this conversation. 

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Carrie <[address removed]> wrote:

Ya, Cynthia, don’t be bossy!  J 

 

Richard, I generally think the personal attacks on this list degrade the conversation and are beneath the professionalism and intelligence of the subscribers (not to mention how they likely discourage many people from participating), but given how perfectly you illustrated the point from my first email with your pithy response below, I can only imagine it was done as the pinnacle of ironic wit.  Kudos. 

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of rburton
Sent: Friday, March 15,[masked]:49 PM
To: [address removed]


Subject: Re: [newtech-1] Lean In

 

Rules by Cynthia - When being a control freak at home isn't enough.

 

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Cynthia Schames <[address removed]> wrote:

Mr Burton, it's helpful when addressing one and only one member of this huge list to actually address them by name.

 

Or ideally to not be quite so caustic, but that's your call obvs. 

 



On Friday, March 15, 2013, Glen DaSilva wrote:

Sexism seems to be a hot topic today: Maria Bartiromo on CNBC’s Closing Bell today cites the book “Lean In” as ‘getting a lot of attention’ – CNBC must read this list to get a pulse! Topic: Successful Women vs. Men – watch at this link, the discussion happened 30 minutes ago:

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000153976

 

Telecommuting Uproar? It’s Because Mayer’s Female: CEO

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100529485

 

Published: Sunday, 10 Mar 2013 | 6:30 AM ET

By: Barbara Moran-Goodrich, CEO of Moran Family of Brands

My advice to women who are in similar situations is to do as Marissa Mayer has done, be unapologetic, unwavering, and decisive.”

 

Also tonight on Rock Center: Erin Callan, former Lehman CFO “don’t do it like me”:

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/15/17301962-former-lehman-cfo-erin-callan-dont-do-it-like-me?lite

 

 

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Michael Mellinger


Sent: Friday, March 15,[masked]:17 PM

To: [address removed]


Subject: Re: [newtech-1] Lean In

 

Richard, don't worry, it's not you, it's everyone else. Slam down a few Red Bulls and get back to work. 

-Mike

 


On Mar 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, rburton <[address removed]> wrote:

Catharine, who the hell said they are poor leaders? Please re-read what I said and in the case you're too lazy, specifically read the example I gave with sports. Because you're athletic doesn't mean you'll want to play sports.

 

If you want to burn your bra in the sink, go for it. If you have some emotional issues about this topic, deal with them and don't project your hate on to me because you failed to read my email.

 

Like someone mentioned, these are opinions. Agree/disagree/ in the middle great, but if you're going to pretend that you know the answer, you're just fooling yourself.

 

Keep studying the topic while others raise to the ranks by applying themselves.


On Mar 15, 2013, at 8:09 AM, Catharine Fennell <[address removed]> wrote:





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