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Lecture Two Discussion Board

Leonard H.
LeonardHough
Austin, TX
Post #: 55
Craig, after thinking about it for a little bit, I disagree that Heidegger should have applied his intellect toward a discussion of ethics. He always insisted that his interest was in ontology. He felt like that's the area where he had something new to say. I'm okay with everyone doing what interests them. He probably didn't have particularly interesting insights into ethics. I know *I* don't.
Phillip W.
user 13055613
Austin, TX
Post #: 13
I agree Leonard. Also, I don't have an in depth understanding of Heidegger, only a feeling, and that 2nd hand via Roderick.
My feeling is that Heidegger's ontology is organic, or emergent or...I don't know the word.
I have the feeling that to Heidegger ethics would be either nonsense or very personal or derived from nature.
Another way of looking at it is if engagement and authenticity are the cornerstones of existentialist
ethics, then maybe Heidegger's ontology says all he has to say about ethics.
Kim
user 7355689
Austin, TX
Post #: 733
Nichomachean ethics? http://www.academia.e...­

While I think we can take Heidegger at his word that the analysis of Dasein is non-evaluative, and hence that Heidegger is not trying to provide a normative ethics, it is nevertheless the case that Heidegger’s analysis of Dasein provides a rich phenomenological foundation for understanding the moral life. In fact, Heidegger’s analysis of Dasein stems from a close reading of Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Like Aristotle, Heidegger is not interested in offering moral rules for living a moral life. Rather, starting from the point of view of everyday Dasein, both Heidegger and Aristotle are committed to showing that a particular kind of moral perception is essential to the moral life. This manner of moral perception is essential to correctly understanding both the moral demands made on us as well as the proper role of moral philosophy.I will also argue that the view that any Heideggerian ethics (or any Heideggerian foundation for ethics) commits us to an untenable individualism is simply mistaken. In fact, as I will suggest, Heidegger’s conception of authentic being-with also owes much to Aristotle, and in particular to Aristotle’s conception of friendship. (Jeremy Wisnewski)
A former member
Post #: 1
What I found remarkable is that Roderick came up with Odysseus as authentic self story, yet this is a fictional account, a myth. Seems to me that would be a classic heideggerian gaffe, and worse, one of the most significant ways the self is under siege today is mistaking epic which is a literary genre with purely literary constraints ,as description of reality. The substitution and infection of screen life for experience Baudrillard called simulacrum and Heidegger thought even language itself was often "thematizing" "levleling" and falsifying experience of the real.

This is especially interesting to me because ,as a stranger attempting to start over and enter community in a number of places, I've seen how easily people project fantastic stories from preconceptions and assumptions which have nothing at all to do with the newcomer. Self stories have to float in shared cultural assumptions without which
Xenophobia tends to rear it's ugly tribal head. A Judaic scholar I heard a few years ago said that benevolence toward strangers was considered one of the very most important constraints of the Torah. In a world that's flat,hot and crowded, I have to say thankyaMoses to that one!
Kim
user 7355689
Austin, TX
Post #: 734
What I found remarkable is that Roderick came up with Odysseus as authentic self story, yet this is a fictional account, a myth. Seems to me that would be a classic heideggerian gaffe, and worse, one of the most significant ways the self is under siege today is mistaking epic which is a literary genre with purely literary constraints ,as description of reality.
I think Heidegger was just saying that the fictional Odysseus was always on the move, shaping his destiny, meeting challenges all the way, not fleeing from destiny (except perhaps when he was under the spell of Calypso.) He was just making a reference to the classics to charm the literary-minded audience.

I've seen how easily people project fantastic stories from preconceptions and assumptions which have nothing at all to do with the newcomer. Self stories have to float in shared cultural assumptions without which Xenophobia tends to rear it's ugly tribal head.
I think this is because they have not read enough fiction. http://www.theatlanti...­

Other studies have found that the more immediate benefits of reading include an increased tolerance for uncertainty. Psychologists at the University of Toronto, for example, had participants read either a short story or a non-fiction article, then tested their tolerance for uncertainty. Participants who read the short stories were less likely to need cognitive closure, "a need to reach a quick conclusion in decision-making and an aversion to ambiguity and confusion." The fiction readers, especially those who claimed to be avid readers, were better able to think creatively and not get tied down to one specific idea.

http://reviewcanada.c...­

Fiction is not best thought of as something that is just made up. It is best thought of as narrative with the subject matter of selves in the social world. It is a simulation that is useful because negotiating the social world effectively is extremely tricky, requiring us to weigh up myriad interacting causes and effects. Just as computer simulations can help people negotiate complex tasks such as flying a plane, so novels, stories and dramas can help us understand the complexities of social life.

http://www.psmag.com/...­

Their results should give people “pause to think about the effect of current cutbacks of education in the arts and humanities,” Djikic and her colleagues add. After all, they note, while success in most fields demands the sort of knowledge gained by reading non-fiction, it also “requires people to become insightful about others and their perspectives.”

A Judaic scholar I heard a few years ago said that benevolence toward strangers was considered one of the very most important constraints of the Torah.
That rings a bell.
Phillip W.
user 13055613
Austin, TX
Post #: 15
I think I agree with Kim about the Odyssey and how it fits with Heidegger thinking.
I would go further and refer to Julian Jaynes' observation that introspection was
much deeper in The Odyssey than in The Iliad. In other words, going back in
fictional literature 3000+ years Jaynes see human consciousness emerging.

The Odyssey, like Gilgamesh, the stories of Thomas Wolfe, Cormac McCarthy,
Annie Proulx, Virginia Woolf (too darn many), is a story of going out and trying to
come home. What is found while out is strange and dangerous and wonderful.
And the home which is in the heart can never be found again.

"Fiction is not best thought of as something that is just made up. It is best thought of as narrative with the subject matter of selves in the social world."

Dead on!

For this philosopher wannabe, fiction is where the truth sneaks around and teases us.
Sounds Heideggerian to me.
Leonard H.
LeonardHough
Austin, TX
Post #: 58
What I found remarkable is that Roderick came up with Odysseus as authentic self story, yet this is a fictional account, a myth. Seems to me that would be a classic heideggerian gaffe, and worse, one of the most significant ways the self is under siege today is mistaking epic which is a literary genre with purely literary constraints ,as description of reality. The substitution and infection of screen life for experience Baudrillard called simulacrum
Very nice catch, Catherine. First, in that you noticed that the claim that the story of Odysseus--being fictional--is in no way an authentic self story. And second, in that you observed that for Roderick to chastise us for failing to live up to a self story of epic proportions is, itself, very clearly a siege on the self. The tie to Baudrillard's idea of the simulacrum is undeniable. Thanks for posting about that!!

This is especially interesting to me because ,as a stranger attempting to start over and enter community in a number of places, I've seen how easily people project fantastic stories from preconceptions and assumptions which have nothing at all to do with the newcomer.
Good luck with that one, Catherine. Welcome to the group....I hope it all unfolds to your liking!

TERRY E.
user 8079291
Austin, TX
Post #: 62
Reply to Catherine...
First thanks for the input on Monday with your comment concerning "AHHA" moments..
May I assume or do you imagine that this is a characterization of Dreyfus' discussion
about Heidegger's concept of Affectedness? Do Moods, prepare us for Ahha moments?
See "Being-in-the-World", PG 175, top of page....."Things are always encountered in some specific
way, as attractive, threatening, interesting, boring, frustrating, etc. We care when a piece of equipment breaks
down and whether or not we achieve our goals. Affectedness is the condition of the possibility of specific
things showing up as mattering. Affectedness is therefore a dimension of Dasein's disclosing-an aspect of originary transcendence."....If I am on the right track, we can call this an "Ahha" moment...thank you
Kim
user 7355689
Austin, TX
Post #: 736
one of the most significant ways the self is under siege today is mistaking epic which is a literary genre with purely literary constraints, as description of reality.
The epic genre seems to me a narrative form that is all-encompassing, e.g. depicting a war as opposed to a single battle and comprising many battles that culminate in the final outcome or the resolution, the end of war.

An authentic life (being fully human) is necessarily a narrative more like an epic than a short story. Compared to the man on a tread mill whose preoccupation in putting in an hour of exercise is to reap health benefits of physical fitness, Odysseus's epic journey is about the longer process of character formation, that of a man who is a captain of his ship.

I read a few articles on what it means to be authentic.


http://www.cnn.com/20...­

What's the greater risk? Letting go of what people think, or letting go of how I feel and what I believe and who I am? e. e. cummings wrote, "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody but yourself means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting."

http://www.stephanwet...­

Most people would agree, I think, that becoming and being authentic is an arduous process, and that authentic people are not necessarily the happiest people in the sense of having pleasurable feelings most of the time. The ideal of authenticity makes a very heavy demand on you, one that outweighs concerns about sustaining good feelings in all situations. To see this, imagine what you would do if a drug were invented that would provide you with nothing but pleasurable feelings for the rest of your life, but would make you a mindless slave to society’s conventions. Would you be willing to take that drug for the rest of your life? If you even hesitate to say “yes,” then you probably feel that there is (or might be) something worthwhile about being authentic that goes beyond whatever good feelings it might bring. The question now is: What is the up side of authenticity? What is its appeal?

The third find, a chapter by Charles Guignon from a book (possibly an edited book with essays by different authors) was more scholarly but I'm having trouble finding it again. Will post if I recover this information.

Found it. Becoming a Self: The Role of Authenticity in Being and Time http://www.scribd.com...­ pp. 128-41
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