Who wants to debate a Christian on the radio?

As part of the Mill Avenue Resistance (an ongoing protest against crazy street preachers), we have met a nice and somewhat less crazy Christian who goes by the stage name "Vocab Malone" (he's a Christian Hip-Hop artist among other things).

Recently he started a radio show, and he's been asking us to be guests on it. In fact, today he issued a challenge to us to put up someone suitable to come on his show "the first sunday night in october from 8-9pm".

I've considered taking the offer myself, and it would be nice to get a bit more publicity for betterthanfaith.com, but I have to weigh that against the good that could be done here.

EDIT 09/07/2008: Just to clarify his position, since I don't like misrepresenting people, I asked him about evolution and the age of the Earth last night. He said that although he thinks the Bible says that the Earth is young, he is not sure about it and he is open to the possibility that it's older. He also believes in evolution within "kinds" (Bible term, not scientific), but I think it roughly equates to things like all species of cats for example being a "kind". He does not believe that evolution can get us from one "kind" to another though.

The guy is a YEC (Young Earth Creationist), and although he knows the Bible inside and out, I think he's pretty vulnerable on science. I'm not sure exactly what subject(s) he would want to cover, but if he leaves it open or goes into the realm of science, I think that Jim Lippard or someone else here would probably be more effective than I would. Not that I don't know what I'm talking about at all, but I haven't devoted my life to the study of science, and I'm not well versed enough in a lot of it to pull out quick and clear answers and (especially) supporting evidence.

I should warn you that his show is generally about apologetics and he will most likely want to talk about religion and atheism more than science. One of his favorite things to steer a conversation to is morality, and then he says that "atheists have nothing to base their morality on" and everything gets bogged down there a lot of the time. He sometimes even says that our morality is just "borrowed" from Christians (who of course have the great YHWH and his Bible to base theirs on) as if we couldn't or wouldn't decide that it wasn't a good idea to kill our neighbors without their religion's superb moral example.

He does think he knows something about science, and he says he supports thinking and learning, but he's definitely learning from the wrong people (probably Answers in Genesis and its ilk). I think he's pretty vulnerable on science, especially to someone who knows it well and knows how to steer the conversation in the right direction.

I also think he's vulnerable on issues that are part science and part religion, like when I brought up the soul and the fact that purely physical changes (such as brain damage) can completely change a person's personality, morality, etc. If they want to say that the soul isn't the source of those things, then it seems to me that they're destroying a lot of their own arguments. If the soul is the source of any of those things, then purely physical changes shouldn't be able to alter them, right? I think we were interrupted or he managed to change the subject, but I don't think he had much of an answer to that.

Although I usually talk to him in person, if you want to see the conversations he's had with our group online, check out our forums. We have several open topics that we still need to respond to at the moment, but there are fairly long threads that should give you an idea of what he thinks and how he argues.

I'm sure there are a lot of vulnerabilities that could be exploited, and this is a chance not only to show his listeners some weaknesses in his belief system, but also to get more exposure for all of us, and hopefully put a good face on Phoenix's atheists. So I'd like to hear your thoughts about it and to see if any of you would be willing and able to take this challenge on. Feel free to sign up on the forum and post a response directly to him if you want to!

Oh yeah, and if any of you are still interested in seeing what we're doing, we're still out there every Saturday night, as long as the preachers don't get the restraining order they're threatening to get (without having any grounds for actually getting one -- they just don't like having to defend the nonsense they're spewing). School's back in session, so things should be picking up, especially from about 9 to 11:00 or later, depending on when the preachers decide to show up and when they slink off again.

I'd need more info on what exactly the debate would be structured around. If, as you say, he'd be more interested in talking about religion and atheism, then that really isn't a debate, but an interview.

What topic specifically does he want to debate on? If you could narrow it down a bit, then it would help us.

I vote for Jim!
Who's with me?
Maybe we can get Jim and Greydon Square (Eddie Collins) he used to be a street preacher on Mill!
Yin and Yang.....together to fight the good fight! Are ya feelin' it?

I just watched Flock of Dodos and I feel they are correct. We are usually not engaging these people because the argument seems so foolish...like debating the reason why unicorns didn't make it onto the arc! In turn, by not engaging them they may think "We are obviously correct because the atheists are afraid to even speak to us"

It's like talking to a child. If your child comes out with something so silly and outrageous you can't just let it go. You can't let them go on believing that one's nose hair is actually little trees or that the human body is the "fuming" body.
No matter how cute or funny or comforting i.e. "Grandpa's watching us from heaven now, Honey" You can't let that nonsense continue.

So Jim tag "You're It!"

Okay....I sent Eddie a message....with the second line of

"you don't know me but..."

so we'll see

Here's the info from myspace so

Eddie is NOT IN AT ALL!

fair enough
thanks for the music

Holly

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Greydon Square
Date: Sep 3, 2008 9:14 AM



to be honest right now i want nothing to do with the american atheist community. Ive seen nothing but duplicity in the community and its not something im willing to invest in anymore. Sorry man
Greydon

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Holly
Date: Sep 3, 2008 9:08 AM


Don't you like things that start like this?

You don't know me but........

This is a link to a message board of a Phoenix atheist group....the one that had the fundraiser to get the 5 billboards for downtown Phoenix.

One member has been contacted to debate a xtian rapper/hip-hop dude (who preaches on mill and who has his own radio show) on the radio on a sunday night?!

What do you think? Would you be up for it?

http://atheists.... meetup. com/157/messages/boards/thread/5359401

You're right Jeremy, having more information would help. I posted a request for more information in the forum thread about it, so hopefully he'll provide some details, and I'll re-post them here.

Like I said before though, the show is generally about Christian apologetics, so whatever the topic is, unless you're good at shutting him down if he strays, it'll probably come back to the Bible/Jesus/God/etc. in the end. He isn't nearly as bad as a lot of Christians though. He won't always go directly to God without passing Go or collecting $200. I would assume though that at least part of his intention is to show his audience how he deals with atheists when he's evangelizing.

If anyone is interested in going on the show but you want to talk to him in person first to see what you're getting into, he's usually on Mill on Saturday nights, and if you want to know for sure if he'll be there before showing up, let me know and I'll try to get ahold of him, or you can e-mail him at vocab@backpacktruth.com and ask him yourself.

Maybe we can get Jim and Greydon Square (Eddie Collins) he used to be a street preacher on Mill!

It's funny, apparently Vocab lives across the street from Greydon Square...I don't think they bother each other, but it'd be funny if they came outside periodically and had Hip-Hop showdowns in the street.

Okay, here's what he said when I asked about the topic and format. It sounds a little short, and the topic is one where no one can actually prove their side, but I think he'll stick to what he's saying and treat the guest fairly, so if we're prepared I think we'll be alright.

Hopefully we can at least show them that we're just normal people who don't believe in gods, not some kind of depraved lunatics like some Christians seem to think we are, and maybe we can even get some of his listeners to think about the possibility that we're right.

In the end it's something they will have to think about and decide for themselves, but at least they may hear some ideas they haven't heard before, and that may be enough to lead them to the truth.

Here's his response to my request for more information:

What topic(s) do you want to cover?

the best choice is to distill it down to the raw essence of our difference:
does God exist or not? i.e., is there a God?

Do you want to have a structured debate, or just an informal discussion?

the co-host will act as moderator. he will introduce both parties involved and then set out the structure.
which is most likely gonna be like this:

5 minute opener x2
3 minute rebuttals x2
2 minute response to rebuttals x2
2 1/2 minute closing statements x2
total approx. time = 25 minutes

there will be a general intro to the show by the co-host as well.
plus time for station info and perhaps some commercials ...

after all this stuff, plus the 'debate' itself, we may have 15 minutes or so to field questions from the audience
if we don't receive any calls or text messages - we read those on the air as well ... then we will have a chance
to address each other directly. it will be more conversational at this point and less formal.
but generally it'd be fair to have each one of us ask each other questions in turn ...

of course, we will also need to have an actual close to the radio show itself and make soem announcements, etc.

the co-host will close the show. he will not declare a winner or anything like that. no boxing round bell sound effects or anything.

if you want, you can have one other person come with you who will be in charge of keeping the time and sounding a lil' chime when one of us goes over.
we are still debating exactly how to do this (as well as some of the format) to make it 'good radio' ... said person must be responsible and mature.
they can be on your side, of course, but must act as an unbiased time keeper.

sound good so far?
vm

ps - once a person (or two) accepts, we will need to meet up to go over the details because
the show must be smooth and well- run. we can only do this if we are on the same page
and can discuss the basic format as well as some radio etiquette ...

I'm interested in doing this, and will be sending him an email.

I think the "Does God exist or not?" topic is a bit too vague for a formal debate. It is setting up a false dichotomy with the Christian god as the only option. I think a better topic might be for his side to pick one point which he considers the most valuable/potent reason for his belief in God, and I (or whoever) to make the counter-claim.

If he just wants to have a civil discussion with some atheists regarding the existance of (a) God, then I think that might make for good radio as well. We could field questions from the audience via a chatroom or text msgs.

I'll let you know when I hear back from him.

Young-earth creationism is something I'm pretty well versed in, as well as general philosophy of religion and Christianity.

Is this an Internet radio station/podcast, or an actual broadcast radio show?

KXXT Family Life Radio, first Sunday in October. Unfortunately, that's the evening I'll be returning from the Skeptics Society conference at Caltech.

I read a few of Vocab Malone's posts, and he seems like a pretty reasonable guy who expresses himself well and calmly.