Re: [ronpaul-1358] Oceanside (California) Couple Accused of Human Trafficking

From: Jim P.
Sent on: Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:08 PM
The libertarian view of immigration is that it should be voluntary in accordance with property rights. Someone in America who owns property can invite anyone to live, visit, or work on their property. Those who don't want foreigners on their property can disallow them - from their property only. Laws restricting immigration aren't necessary for a nation to exist, as evidenced by the first century or so of US history.

Immigration is a completely separate issue from human rights. Obviously not all immigration involves human rights violations and not all human rights violations involve immigrants. I can draw you a picture, if you need one.



-----Original Message-----
From: JM <[address removed]>
To: ronpaul-1358 <[address removed]>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3,[masked]:12 pm
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Oceanside (California) Couple Accused of Human Trafficking

Gary,

As I understand the Libertarian mind-set on Immigration, both Legal and Illegal, is that it's a complete free-for-all - no rules, no standards. I suppose law enforcement like e-Verify would be considered "violence" by "the statists".

From what I've seen, the official position of the national Libertarian Party on Immigration on their website is a link to an article on the Cato institute website. Talk about outsourcing!

Isn't it rather pointless to have laws on Immigration if there isn't going to be any enforcement of them, especially if the enforcement is considered to be "violence" committed by "the statists"?

So what's your thoughts on the exploitation and human rights of Illegal Immigrants? That particular article I posted is just one example. Libertarians just seem to want to bury their collective heads in the sand on this issue.



On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Gary Barnes <[address removed]> wrote:
JM…perhaps you need to read up on what a Libertarian actually is.  Your subterfuge meant to demean is obvious.  You’re not a Libertarian yourself so you are using this board as a way to incite poor behavior instead of as a tool within the Libertarian community.
 
All the answers you’re looking for are on the national Libertarian site. You obviously don’t understand this Party. The questions you’re “asking” are not valid.
 
I’m not a Libertarian either but I’m not here to use false assumptions against them. I’m here to learn.
 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of JM
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 4:29 PM
To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Oceanside (California) Couple Accused of Human Trafficking
 
Did you actually read the article????

The girl was smuggled into the country.

Sure looks like a crime was committed to me.

But Libertarians seem to believe that any sort of law enforcement on Illegal Immigration is
VIOLENCE committed by THE STATISTS.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Nick Constant <[address removed]> wrote:
What does the article or the sarcastic note you sent to all of us have to do with illegal immigration? Were you asserting that enforcing immigration laws would have stopped this rape and forced labor situation from happening? If you were, I did not gather that from your note:
 
"(golly, leave it to THE STATISTS to stick their violence-prone nose into people's business. Obviously, this was all about an exchange of labor for a fee. Was there really any need for THE STATISTS to promote their STATISTS STANDARDS on human rights, exploitation, and all the rest? What is happening to Liberty And Freedom in this country if there can't be an exchange of a person's Labor for compensation, even if part of the compensation is abuse??)"
 
It seemed to me you were trying assert that we libertarians believe the State should not defend someone's individual rights.
 
Well I can only speak for myself , but while I don't believe the State should have a monopoly on force, this is the current system we are living under and is the only justice system in existence. But it does not mean that it is the ONLY system. Meaning that if the State did not exist, it does not mean that this behavior now becomes legal. This is why I sent the link to Rothbard's work. In it, he describes the way the justice system would work in a stateless society.
 
The Fallacious Arguments were to point out the tactics you were using in both your original and subsequent points.
 
Maybe you could clear up your original point some, if I misunderstood.
 
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 3:03 PM, JM <[address removed]> wrote:
So exactly what do those "helpful links" have to do with Illegal Immigration?

Isn't enforcement of laws on Illegal Immigration considered
VIOLENCE by THE STATISTS in the Land of the Libertarians??
 
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Nick Constant <[address removed]> wrote:
A couple helpful links:

Murray Rothbard on truly free market defense services, in the absense
of the state and it's monopoly on force:
http://mises.org/rothbard/mes/chap13.asp

A list of fallacious arguments. Please see: Strawman, Changing the
Subject, Argument By Vehemence,and Excluded Middle:
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:02 PM, JM <[address removed]> wrote:
> Golly, Glenn
>
> The voting populace approving dog control through licensing that's enforced
> by .... who?
>
> THE STATISTS??!!?
>
> I thought any sort of law enforcement is considered Violence to
> Libertarians.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Glenn <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>> The voting populace has ordinarily approved dog control through licensing,
>> as packs of wild dogs in the streets used to be a terrifying situation in
>> cities and towns a century ago. How can one argue liberty for dogs when one
>> is being torn apart by the same hungry animals?
>>
>> Lastly, a fine for dog crap is not violence. A chopper mowing down
>> civilian Iraqis in the street is violence. Let's keep some perspective here.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Oceanside (California) Couple Accused of Human
>> Trafficking
>> From: [address removed]
>> To: [address removed]
>> Date: Thu, 3 Jan[masked]:13:24 -0500
>>
>>
>> Hi, Scott
>>
>> I don't own a dog.
>>
>> And don't THE STATISTS require licensing for dogs, besides requiring the
>> owner to pick up the dog's poop? All required by laws that are enforced
>> through VIOLENCE???
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Scott R <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>> Well said, Jim.  I was tempted to reply earlier today but saw myself
>> making a very long diatribe, and then decided to not even bother.  You were
>> able to fully capture in three short sentences what I would have wanted to
>> say.
>>
>> JM, did a voluntaryist run over your dog today?
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Jim Palmer <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>> Do you know what a straw man argument is? No one here believes slavery and
>> rape should be permitted. The disagreement is over who pays and the
>> government's policing monopoly.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: JM <[address removed]>
>> To: ronpaul-1358 <[address removed]>
>> Sent: Wed, Jan 2,[masked]:46 am
>> Subject: [ronpaul-1358] Oceanside (California) Couple Accused of Human
>> Trafficking
>>
>> (golly, leave it to THE STATISTS to stick their violence-prone nose into
>> people's business. Obviously, this was all about an exchange of labor for a
>> fee. Was there really any need for THE STATISTS to promote their STATISTS
>> STANDARDS on human rights, exploitation, and all the rest? What is happening
>> to Liberty And Freedom in this country if there can't be an exchange of a
>> person's Labor for compensation, even if part of the compensation is
>> abuse??)
>>
>> Oceanside Couple Accused of Human Trafficking
>>
>> Inez Martinez Garcia, 43, and husband Marcial Garcia Hernandez, 45,
>> allegedly abused a young girl who was smuggled into the U.S.
>>
>> By Monica Garske and Chris Chan | Friday, Nov 30, 2012 | Updated 2:04 PM
>> PST
>> Source:
>> http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Oceanside-Couple-Accused-of-Human-Trafficking-181484691.html#ixzz2Gphsi23j
>>
>> A married couple in Oceanside was arrested on suspicion of human
>> trafficking Thursday, the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department confirmed.
>> Inez Martinez Garcia, 43, and her husband, Marcial Garcia Hernandez, 45,
>> were arrested by officials as they left their home in Oceanside at around
>> 7:20 a.m.
>> According to the sheriff’s department, both suspects have been charged
>> with 13 felony counts of aggravated assault of a child under 14 years old.
>> Marisa Ugarte of the Bilateral Safety Corridor Coalition, a non-profit
>> that provides support to trafficking victims, said her organization brought
>> the case to the Sheriff's Department because the victim wanted justice.
>> The alleged crimes happened in 2000.
>> The female victim in this case – who’s now an adult – came forward with
>> allegations of forced labor and physical and sexual abuse by the Oceanside
>> couple.
>> Deputies say the investigation revealed the girl was smuggled into the
>> United States at the age of 12 with promises of a better life and receiving
>> an education.
>> According to investigators, when the victim arrived at the Garcia
>> household, she was allegedly forced to care for the couple’s three young
>> children, cook and clean the house under constant threat of physical abuse.
>> Officials said that over the course of a 20-month period, the young girl
>> was also forced to have sex with Marcial Garcia Hernandez.
>> When she refused to participate in the sex acts or didn’t complete her
>> household labor in a timely manner she was beaten, said investigators.
>> The victim was also allegedly forced to lie about her age when the couple
>> found work for the girl at a local restaurant. She had to turn over all of
>> her wages to Inez Martinez Garcia, investigators said.
>> Over time, the couple also allegedly forced the girl into having sex with
>> other older men for monetary gain.
>> Deputies say the Garcias’ arrest is the culmination of a
>> two-and-a-half-year-old human trafficking cold case.
>> Neighbors said they lived in two different houses in Oceanside. Behind
>> their current house was an illegal structure that allegedly housed
>> immigrants with one room containing a mattress and some food.
>> Neighbors said they looked like a normal family, often holding parties
>> inviting neighbors.
>> The couple was taken into custody by the Sheriff’s Vista COPPS Unit task
>> force, Homeland Security investigators and Oceanside police.
>> Both suspects have been booked into the Vista Detention Facility. They are
>> scheduled to appear in court on Monday, Dec. 3.
>>
>>
>> Source:
>> http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Oceanside-Couple-Accused-of-Human-Trafficking-181484691.html#ixzz2GphZGzqF
>>
>> This Oceanside home is where Inez Garcia and Marcial Garcia Hernandez
>> lived, say neighbors.
>>
>>
>> Source:
>> http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Oceanside-Couple-Accused-of-Human-Trafficking-181484691.html#ixzz2Gpi9cjnJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
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