Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

From: shemdogg
Sent on: Friday, January 4, 2013 9:44 PM
Then you realize the anti-federalist papers opposed the constitution...  

On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Gary Barnes <[address removed]> wrote:

I must be on the wrong thread. I thought this was a Libertarian meetup with the ronpaul label. Btw I have read the anti-federalist papers extensively as well as the federalist papers and all the transcripts from the Constitutional convention.

 

You can claim what you want. I’ve read the history.  The States were very protective of their sovereignty, their independent Countries. They formed governments within those States. The people of the States were bound to their governments, like it or not. If you didn’t, you moved somewhere else.  The anti-federalists were against National central government and wanted the Confederation that was in place to continue with some sound policy to work together on foreign affairs as independent States.

 

I will yield to whatever response you have in the can ready to go to shoot down any semblance of reality. I find many of these discussions to be totally counter productive.  You don’t have to agree with anything presented and you can live with the government we have now.  It seems whenever someone tries to even attempt to make things better, they are slapped down for their efforts. I notice it happens a lot on these threads.

 

I offer my other cheek to the pointless argument.

 

Meanwhile for those interested in trying to improve our standing, lets’ work together.

 

 


From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of shemdogg
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:08 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

 

no gary why don't you re read the anti federalists papers

they talk about how out of control a central government get.  they necessarily talk about how large government needs to be

my response was not isolationist.  it was voluntary trade with everyone.  a constitutionalist would say i have to live my life by a contract that (he and i) never signed.  a constitutionalist would argue congress, a group of individuals who i've never met can violate my god-given property rights by stealing the fruits of my labor.  that during times of war soldiers can be quartered at my home whether i like it or not.    a constitutional would argue that "reasonable" (as defined by him or congress or some other invidual i've never met) searches of person are acceptable.  even the in the 10th amendment a constitutionalist delegates powers to states (groups of other individuals who i've never met, never contracted with, and don't consent to obey)

don't call me an interventionist when your system, even if operating within it's written limits, is using force against people for your greater good

 

 


From: Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, January 4,[masked]:56 PM
Subject: RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

 

The anti-federalists believed in government at the State and local levels, keeping government close to the people.  Your response is that of an isolationist, not an anti-federalist.

 

 


From: [address removed] [mailto: [address removed] ] On Behalf Of shemdogg
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 6:59 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

 

that's just my point.  we the people taking our government back is collectivist talk.  i don't want to be governed by anyone other than myself.  i want to be free.  i am an antifederalist and very few of those things apply to me

 

 


From: Gary Barnes < [address removed] >
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, January 4,[masked]:14 PM
Subject: RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

 

I agree with you.  The list comprises more of a contrast than actual applications, though many issues can be viewed positively. I have also brought the Anti-Federalist view (or what may be interpreted) up to the current timeline in an attempt to project a current and future possibility for the people to take back their government.

 


From: [address removed] [mailto: [address removed] ] On Behalf Of shemdogg
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:45 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

 

Some anti federalists thought even a republic was too much government

 

They would have opposed quite a few of the issues you have their 

 

 

 

 



On Jan 4, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Robert <[address removed]> wrote:

The chart looks good, but I would not use the term "Federalist" to describe our current state.

The Federalism is not at all representative of our current system as is actually more descriptive of what you describe as "Anti-Federalist".

 

Remember, the term "Anti-Federalist" was thrust upon Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry, not because they were literally anti-Federalism, but because they were generally in opposition to the Federalist Party's support of the Constitution over the Articles of Confederation. Both sides espoused Federalist Principles, and ironically those labeled as "Anti-Federalist" were more strongly supportive of them in comparison to a centralized government. Our Constitution, particularly as amended by the Bill of Rights, creates a Federalist system.

 

Robbo

 

 


From: Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]; [address removed]; [address removed]
Sent: Fri, January 4,[masked]:20:49 PM
Subject: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this spreadsheet. We’re making presentations this year to several groups disillusioned by our current Federal Government.  While we don’t have everything listed, we want to give the clearest picture (and contrast) as possible to reach the widest audience.  We know technically the Government considers itself a Republic restricted by the Constitution. This comparison is about what we believe is really happening.  This is not a fix all solution as many here have pet issues they want to see resolved.  It is rather a window into a possible future Federal Government more in line with the Anti-Federalist positions in the past and what they might look like in the present. 

 

Thank you all in advance for your time.

 

Gary

 

The Anti-Federalists - 2013

Federalists - Our Current Government - The Two Party System

 

 

The People are the Government

The Politicians are the Government

Term limits for Representatives

Career Politicians

Confederation of Countries (States)

Centralized Nation State (Forced Union )

Republic and the Rule of Law.

Democracy used as an Oligarchy – Elitist Rule.

Senators Appointed by States

Senators Democratically Elected. Majority Rules

Representative Government

Party Ideologue Government of Elitists

A non-Party Government for ALL the People

Two Party System meant to Divide and Enslave

All Americans are Created Equal

Class Warfare, Inequality. Creating Partisanship

Minority Ideologies are Protected

Majority Ideology Rules. Minority enslaved.

Extremely Limited Constitutional Government

Constitutional Government Interpreted 10,000 ways

Small Federal Government

Bloated Federal Government

Government Departments run Cost Effectively

Departments Mismanaged and Overspending

Elimination of Czars

Czars using Power for Ideological Purposes

Government for Foreign Affairs

Government for Everything

State’s Rights

Limited States Rights (virtually no State’s Rights)

Limited Federal Government

Unlimited Federal Government

Decentralized Government Close to the People

Centralized Government Away from the People

State’s run Domestic Affairs

Federal Government runs Domestic affairs

Patriotic to State and Country

Patriotic to Dystopian Nation State

Protection of Personal Property

Confiscation of Personal Property

Responsible Immigration Policy

Broken and unenforceable Immigration Policy

Eliminating Foreign Aid

Funding Countries that hate America

No United Nations. Coalition with Friendly Countries

Bowing to United Nations

End all Wars. Bring Troops Home

Troop Stationed Everywhere

Smaller more effective National Defense

Bloated Pentagon sending 1000s to Die, 10s of 1000s Hurt

Protect the States and the People

Policing the World

Espouse the Republic form of Government

Forcing Democracy on the World

No Taxation without Representation

Taxation without TRUE Representation

The Right to Live as One chooses

Forced to Live as Others choose

Enjoy the Fruits of One’s labor

Fruits taken and Redistributed

Pursue the American Dream

Punished attaining the American Dream (Progressive Tax)

Donating through Individual’s choice

Government Cronyism through Redistribution

No Lobbyists

Lobbyists

Open Market Capitalism

Crony Capitalism, Special Interest Groups

Fair Market Banking, No Central Bank, Specie Based

Fractional Banking by Cartel (FED). Paper Money

Limited Regulations

Nearly Unlimited Regulations

Stipends for Representation (No Benefits)

Politicians set own Salaries, Benefits, Health care

Part time Representation

Full time Career Politician

Choice in Government Programs

Forced to belong to Government Programs

Private Health Care options

Forced to have care - forced Government Programs

Balanced Budgets annually

No Budgets – Unlimited Spending

Fiscal Responsibility

Fiscal Irresponsibility and Deficit Spending

Responsible Crisis borrowing with Short Term Payback

Irresponsible "Crisis" borrowing and unable to payback

Energy Independence

Forced Green Energy Solutions

Ending Subsidies to all sectors

Paying Subsidies to favorites and friends

People’s Right of Self-Defense, Gun Ownership

Police State, Dystopian Society

Judges voted to Office

Judges picked by Political Ideology for life

Secession and Nullification, State Competition

Forced to stay in Union and obey Federal edicts

No Taxation by Federal Government

Forced Taxation by Federal Government

Funded by Imports and non-Income Solutions

Forced Taxation

No Corporate Taxation. Keep Jobs in America

2nd Highest in World. Forcing Jobs to go Overseas

No Centralized Internal Improvements

Centralized Internal Improvements

No Pork Spending

Pork Spending to get Politicians re-elected

Limited Crisis Welfare, Self Responsibility

Unlimited Welfare, Dependency for Political re-election

Job Training for Poor (Private Training Schools)

Failed Public Training Programs

Protection of all Senior Programs (50 and above)

Bankrupting Programs, Stealing Money from Social Security

Government Time Limited Emergency Safety Net

Government Bloated unlimited Welfare State

Welfare - Ending Poverty through Private Sector

Welfare - Keeping the Poor…Poor

Help less fortunate (Private Donations/Programs)

Buying Votes through Entitlements for Poor

 

 

 

Gary W Barnes

[address removed]

 

 





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