RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

From: user 1.
Sent on: Saturday, January 5, 2013 10:51 AM
Shemdogg you are so right about everything. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of
shemdogg
Sent: Saturday, January 05,[masked]:11 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart

Thank you!

Gary sets up a list and even though he clings to federalism doesn't realize
that he belongs on the federalist side of his chart

Even neoconservatives as recent as Reagan have said that government is the
problem, not the solution.  Why in this day and age would anyone (especially
a Ron Paul supporter) be defending any government whatsoever?  By default
government violates god-given / natural rights.

Wake up! 

On Jan 5, 2013, at 2:01 AM, danarchy <[address removed]> wrote:

> people who think they understand what Ron Paul's philosophy on government
is about but dont really understand it at all.
> 
> a libertarian minarchist central planner is still a central planner. i'm
so sick of hearing all this garbage from pseudo libertarians about a 'return
to a constitutional government', these people still intend to use a piece of
paper to rule over the people, it wasnt ok 200 years ago and its not ok now.
> 
> go read lysander spooners letter to grover cleveland and then go read his
No Treason, if you want a lesson on constitutional government.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung smartphone on AT&T
> 
> shemdogg <[address removed]> wrote:
> 
>> gary it's easy for you to sit at home and email about what's best for me.
could you honestly infringing on someone else's life, liberty, and property,
as your constitution sactions?  to hell with what you think is the 
>> common good.  you're starting to sound like a goddamn liberal.  start
thinking for yourself.  stop thinking about what's unconstitutional and
start thinking about what's immoral.  leave me out of your central planning.
you don't own me or anyone else.  reread the 
>> declaration of independence.  it was written so that the dumbest of 
>> farmers could understand it.  it doesn't grant but resounds the
individual's right to life, liberty, and property.  what is unamerican about
that where do you get the nerve to stake claim over mine???
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ____________________­____________
>> From: Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
>> To: [address removed] 
>> Sent: Friday, January 4,[masked]:08 PM
>> Subject: RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re: [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It took me a while to realize you're not
>> American. All your references to "your" government, your "constitutional"
>> government.
>>  
>> You can get off the soapbox now. To hell
>> with your anarchism.
>> 
>> ____________________­____________
>> 
>> From:[address removed] [mailto: [address removed] ] On Behalf
Of shemdogg
>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013
>> 10:59 PM
>> To: [address removed]
>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>  
>> Almost everything
>> listed as ant federalist on your spreadsheets infers obedience to some
>> government 
>>  
>> You
>> are the federalist here.  To hell with your government 
>> 
>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
>> wrote:
>> Of course.did I state otherwise? Hamilton 
>> was the lead dog for the Nationalists. Yates, Lansing, and other
anti-federalists
>> left the convention early because of the refusal to be a part of the
entire
>> exercise. I wrote an entire book on this.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> ____________________­____________
>>> 
>>> From:[address removed] [mailto:[address removed] ] On Behalf
Of shemdogg
>>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013
>> 9:44 PM
>>> To: [address removed]
>>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>  
>>> Then you realize the anti-federalist papers opposed the
>> constitution...  
>>> 
>>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
>> wrote:
>>> I must be on the wrong thread. I thought this was a Libertarian
>> meetup with the ronpaul label. Btw I have read the anti-federalist papers
>> extensively as well as the federalist papers and all the transcripts from
the
>> Constitutional convention.
>>>>  
>>>> You can claim what you want. I've read the history.  The
>> States were very protective of their sovereignty, their independent
Countries.
>> They formed governments within those States. The people of the States
were
>> bound to their governments, like it or not. If you didn't, you moved
somewhere
>> else.  The anti-federalists were against National central government and
>> wanted the Confederation that was in place to continue with some sound
policy
>> to work together on foreign affairs as independent States.
>>>>  
>>>> I will yield to whatever response you have in the can ready to go
>> to shoot down any semblance of reality. I find many of these discussions
to be
>> totally counter productive.  You don't have to agree with anything
>> presented and you can live with the government we have now.  It seems
>> whenever someone tries to even attempt to make things better, they are
slapped
>> down for their efforts. I notice it happens a lot on these threads.
>>>>  
>>>> I offer my other cheek to the pointless argument.
>>>>  
>>>> Meanwhile for those interested in trying to improve our standing,
>> lets' work together.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________­____________
>>>> 
>>>> From:[address removed] [mailto:[address removed] ] On
Behalf Of shemdogg
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013
>> 9:08 PM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>>  
>>>> no gary
>> why don't you re read the anti federalists papers 
>>>> 
>>>> they talk about how out of control a central government get.  they
>> necessarily talk about how large government needs to be
>>>> 
>>>> my response was not isolationist.  it was voluntary trade with
>> everyone.  a constitutionalist would say i have to live my life by a
>> contract that (he and i) never signed.  a constitutionalist would argue
>> congress, a group of individuals who i've never met can violate my
god-given
>> property rights by stealing the fruits of my labor.  that during times of
>> war soldiers can be quartered at my home whether i like it or not.   
>> a constitutional would argue that "reasonable" (as defined by him or
>> congress or some other invidual i've never met) searches of person are
>> acceptable.  even the in the 10th amendment a constitutionalist delegates
>> powers to states (groups of other individuals who i've never met, never
>> contracted with, and don't consent to obey)
>>>> 
>>>> don't call me an interventionist when your system, even if operating
within
>> it's written limits, is using force against people for your greater good
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________­____________
>>>> 
>>>> From:Gary Barnes <[address removed] >
>>>> To: [address removed] 
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 4,[masked]:56
>> PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>>  
>>>> The anti-federalists believed in
>> government at the State and local levels, keeping government close to the
>> people.  Your response is that of an isolationist, not an
anti-federalist.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________­____________
>>>> 
>>>> From:[address removed] [mailto: [address removed] ] On
Behalf Of shemdogg
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013
>> 6:59 PM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>>  
>>>> that's just my point.  we the people taking
>> our government back is collectivist talk.  i don't want to be governed by
>> anyone other than myself.  i want to be free.  i am an antifederalist
>> and very few of those things apply to me
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________­____________
>>>> 
>>>> From:Gary Barnes < [address removed] >
>>>> To: [address removed] 
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 4,[masked]:14
>> PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>>  
>>>> I agree with you.  The list comprises
>> more of a contrast than actual applications, though many issues can be
viewed
>> positively. I have also brought the Anti-Federalist view (or what may be
>> interpreted) up to the current timeline in an attempt to project a
current and
>> future possibility for the people to take back their government.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________­____________
>>>> 
>>>> From:[address removed] [mailto: [address removed] ] On
Behalf Of shemdogg
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013
>> 5:45 PM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ronpaul-1358] Re:
>> [lpct-activists] Feedback on chart
>>>>  
>>>> Some anti federalists
>> thought even a republic was too much government
>>>>  
>>>> They would have
>> opposed quite a few of the issues you have their 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Robert <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>> The chart looks good, but I would not
>> use the term "Federalist" to describe our current state.
>>>>>­ The Federalism is not at all
>> representative of our current system as is actually more descriptive of
what
>> you describe as "Anti-Federalist".
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ Remember, the term
>> "Anti-Federalist" was thrust upon Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry,
>> not because they were literally anti-Federalism, but because they were
>> generally in opposition to the Federalist Party's support of the
Constitution
>> over the Articles of Confederation. Both sides espoused Federalist
Principles,
>> and ironically those labeled as "Anti-Federalist" were more strongly
>> supportive of them in comparison to a centralized government. Our
Constitution,
>> particularly as amended by the Bill of Rights, creates a
>> Federalist system.
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ Robbo
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ ____________________­____________
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ From:Gary Barnes <[address removed]>
>>>>>­ To: [address removed]; [address removed];
[address removed]
>>>>>­ Sent: Fri, January 4,[masked]:20:49
>> PM
>>>>>­ Subject: [lpct-activists] Feedback
>> on chart
>>>>>­ I was wondering if I
>> could get some feedback on this spreadsheet. We're making presentations
this year
>> to several groups disillusioned by our current Federal Government.  While
>> we don't have everything listed, we want to give the clearest picture
(and
>> contrast) as possible to reach the widest audience.  We know technically
>> the Government considers itself a Republic restricted by the
Constitution. This
>> comparison is about what we believe is really happening.  This is not a
>> fix all solution as many here have pet issues they want to see resolved. 
>> It is rather a window into a possible future Federal Government more in
line
>> with the Anti-Federalist positions in the past and what they might look
like in
>> the present.  
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ Thank you all in
>> advance for your time.
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ Gary
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ The Anti-Federalists - 2013 Federalists - Our Current Government - The
Two Party System 
>>>>>­     
>>>>>­ The People are the Government The Politicians are the Government 
>>>>>­ Term limits for Representatives Career Politicians 
>>>>>­ Confederation of Countries (States) Centralized Nation State (Forced
Union ) 
>>>>>­ Republic and the Rule of Law. Democracy used as an Oligarchy - Elitist
Rule. 
>>>>>­ Senators Appointed by States Senators Democratically Elected. Majority
Rules 
>>>>>­ Representative Government Party Ideologue Government of Elitists 
>>>>>­ A non-Party Government for ALL the People Two Party System meant to
Divide and Enslave 
>>>>>­ All Americans are Created Equal Class Warfare, Inequality. Creating
Partisanship 
>>>>>­ Minority Ideologies are Protected Majority Ideology Rules. Minority
enslaved. 
>>>>>­ Extremely Limited Constitutional Government Constitutional Government
Interpreted 10,000 ways 
>>>>>­ Small Federal Government Bloated Federal Government 
>>>>>­ Government Departments run Cost Effectively Departments Mismanaged and
Overspending 
>>>>>­ Elimination of Czars Czars using Power for Ideological Purposes 
>>>>>­ Government for Foreign Affairs Government for Everything 
>>>>>­ State's Rights Limited States Rights (virtually no State's Rights) 
>>>>>­ Limited Federal Government Unlimited Federal Government 
>>>>>­ Decentralized Government Close to the People Centralized Government
Away from the People 
>>>>>­ State's run Domestic Affairs Federal Government runs Domestic affairs 
>>>>>­ Patriotic to State and Country Patriotic to Dystopian Nation State 
>>>>>­ Protection of Personal Property Confiscation of Personal Property 
>>>>>­ Responsible Immigration Policy Broken and unenforceable Immigration
Policy 
>>>>>­ Eliminating Foreign Aid Funding Countries that hate America 
>>>>>­ No United Nations. Coalition with Friendly Countries Bowing to United
Nations 
>>>>>­ End all Wars. Bring Troops Home Troop Stationed Everywhere 
>>>>>­ Smaller more effective National Defense Bloated Pentagon sending 1000s
to Die, 10s of 1000s Hurt 
>>>>>­ Protect the States and the People Policing the World 
>>>>>­ Espouse the Republic form of Government Forcing Democracy on the World

>>>>>­ No Taxation without Representation Taxation without TRUE
Representation 
>>>>>­ The Right to Live as One chooses Forced to Live as Others choose 
>>>>>­ Enjoy the Fruits of One's labor Fruits taken and Redistributed 
>>>>>­ Pursue the American Dream Punished attaining the American Dream
(Progressive Tax) 
>>>>>­ Donating through Individual's choice Government Cronyism through
Redistribution 
>>>>>­ No Lobbyists Lobbyists 
>>>>>­ Open Market Capitalism Crony Capitalism, Special Interest Groups 
>>>>>­ Fair Market Banking, No Central Bank, Specie Based Fractional Banking
by Cartel (FED). Paper Money 
>>>>>­ Limited Regulations Nearly Unlimited Regulations 
>>>>>­ Stipends for Representation (No Benefits) Politicians set own
Salaries, Benefits, Health care 
>>>>>­ Part time Representation Full time Career Politician 
>>>>>­ Choice in Government Programs Forced to belong to Government Programs 
>>>>>­ Private Health Care options Forced to have care - forced Government
Programs 
>>>>>­ Balanced Budgets annually No Budgets - Unlimited Spending 
>>>>>­ Fiscal Responsibility Fiscal Irresponsibility and Deficit Spending 
>>>>>­ Responsible Crisis borrowing with Short Term Payback Irresponsible
"Crisis" borrowing and unable to payback 
>>>>>­ Energy Independence Forced Green Energy Solutions 
>>>>>­ Ending Subsidies to all sectors Paying Subsidies to favorites and
friends 
>>>>>­ People's Right of Self-Defense, Gun Ownership Police State, Dystopian
Society 
>>>>>­ Judges voted to Office Judges picked by Political Ideology for life 
>>>>>­ Secession and Nullification, State Competition Forced to stay in Union
and obey Federal edicts 
>>>>>­ No Taxation by Federal Government Forced Taxation by Federal
Government 
>>>>>­ Funded by Imports and non-Income Solutions Forced Taxation 
>>>>>­ No Corporate Taxation. Keep Jobs in America 2nd Highest in World.
Forcing Jobs to go Overseas 
>>>>>­ No Centralized Internal Improvements Centralized Internal Improvements

>>>>>­ No Pork Spending Pork Spending to get Politicians re-elected 
>>>>>­ Limited Crisis Welfare, Self Responsibility Unlimited Welfare,
Dependency for Political re-election 
>>>>>­ Job Training for Poor (Private Training Schools) Failed Public
Training Programs 
>>>>>­ Protection of all Senior Programs (50 and above) Bankrupting Programs,
Stealing Money from Social Security 
>>>>>­ Government Time Limited Emergency Safety Net Government Bloated
unlimited Welfare State 
>>>>>­ Welfare - Ending Poverty through Private Sector Welfare - Keeping the
Poor.Poor 
>>>>>­ Help less fortunate (Private Donations/Programs) Buying Votes through
Entitlements for Poor 
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ Gary W Barnes
>>>>>­ [address removed]
>>>>>­ www.anti-federalists­.us
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­  
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ --
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>>>>>­ This message was sent by Robert ([address removed]) from Connecticut
Ron Paul for President 2012.
>>>>>­ To learn more about Robert, visit his/her member profile
>>>>>­ Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email
| Don't send me
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>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ Meetup,
>> PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked]| [address removed] 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> from Connecticut Ron Paul for President
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>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> from Connecticut Ron Paul for President
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> from Connecticut Ron Paul for President 2012.
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
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>> from Connecticut Ron Paul for President 2012.
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>>> --
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>> from Connecticut Ron Paul for President 2012.
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Ron Paul for President 2012.
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Don't send me mailing list messages 
>> 
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