RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation

From: Ken C.
Sent on: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:41 AM
 
First, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. You insist on saying that a requirement to disclose the fact that a food product contains GMO ingredients is "plunder".
 
Dictionary.com defines plunder, as follows;
 
 plun·der
verb (used with object)
1. to rob of goods or valuables by open force, as in war, hostile raids, brigandage, etc.: to plunder a town.
2. to rob, despoil, or fleece: to plunder the public treasury.
3. to take wrongfully, as by pillage, robbery, or fraud: to plunder a piece of property.

 The cost of adding GMO disclosure is zero. Nothing has been taken from the manufacturer. Therefore, there isn't any "plunder".
 
I know that your response to this will be that the manufacturer's liberty has been taken, or "plundered". However, this is not true unless you believe someone should have the freedom to commit FRAUD.
 
By selling a product intended for human consumption, the mauufacturer is making an implied representation that nothing harmful to health is contained in his product. This implied representation is fraudulent when the product contains GMO ingredients which are suspected to cause cancer and other ill effects. A law require the disclosure of the fact that a product contains GMO ingredients, is a law that is designed to prevent manufacturers of GMO food products from fraudulently implying that nothing that might be harmful to health is in their products.
 
I hate government regulations as much as anyone. However, a law to prevent manufacturers from making fraudulent misrepresentations (implied or otherwise) is not plunder, and is not a loss of liberty. It is as legitimate a function of government as laws criminalizing theft and murder.
 
Ken-   

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
Date: Thu, 18 Oct[masked]:56:59 -0400

Leigh, when it comes to a direct threat to my life, liberty and property I am willing to die trying to protect it. I would also stand at your side and fight with you if you were threatened in the same way. When the monsanto thugs show up at your house to force feed you GMO give me a call and I will hurry over to stand with you, but as long as you want government to accomplish plunder on the free market (what left of it) because you refuse to take responsibility for what you put into your own body, you stand without me at your side. 
We may very well be fighting a great battle of evil with regards to monsanto but evil will never defeat evil, good can and usually does.
In answer to your question; I would hope that I would have found a moral way of fighting them, the nazi's, and make no mistake killing to protect your own life IS moral. But we have our own nazi's right now fighting to take over the free market by convincing us that walking over the rights of individuals engaged in private industry and the consumers is moral. Forgive me for continuing to quote Bastiat but:

We must make our choice among limited plunder, universal plunder, and no plunder. The law can follow only one of these three. 

I think I will choose No Plunder, either of "Them" or of myself. We can't plunder them and not expect to be plundered ourselves, because to vote for a law to plunder one is a vote for the system of plunder in general. Obviously we are all being plundered now, so we must fight it whenever it raises it's ugly head until the system changes.

Let me ask you a question. If you don't like being stolen from would you vote for a law to legalize theft?

On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Leigh Skinner wrote:

Bink,
 
You indicate that even battling evil, we have no right to control another's life, liberty, or property.  I believe we are battling a great evil.  If you lived in Nazi Germany during the holocaust, how would you have treated the rounding up of the Jews and the stealing of their property?
 
Leigh
It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Samuel Adams
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. Frederic Bastiat



From: BINK <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tue, October 16,[masked]:59:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation

Ken,
Morality is usually, if not always, an is or isn't proposition. There is no or little gray area.
Morality is always a choice of conscious, morality however is often misrepresented by law. So if it is immoral for me as an individual to steal your property or your right to manage your business as you see fit, then how can it be moral for you to enlist government to accomplish this for you?

Ken: "The reason people, individually or collectively, have the right to obtain this information is that food is a necessity of life."

Bink: This business is not yours, individually or collectively and you do not have the right to force your will on them regardless of the fact that food is a necessity of life. "Necessity" is the catch all phrase that the bureaucrats use to plunder us continuously. Necessity does not elevate us from acting morally, even though others around us act immorally. An immortal law or regulation is not made moral just because it is a law.
Bastiat: There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are "just" because law makes them so. 

Ken: "We cannot choose not to eat. Therefore, the manufacturers of food products have a greater moral responsibility to their customers that the manufacturers of other types of products. A law requiring them to meet this moral responsibility is not plunder."

Bink: We can choose not to eat GMO, why would we prefer they labeled their GMO laden food anyway, so we can eat it while we read the label? There are lots of food that do not use GMO, there are many producers who already freely choose to label their food as Non GMO. This additional cost they willingly pay to promote their moral stance on safe food. There is no such thing as forced morality, you can not force morality but you can encourage a facsimile there of in the free market place. No such thing as greater or lesser morality, it either is or isn't. Plunder is more than just stealing, the law and even the acceptability of immoral law is a result of plunder. They have plundered the very concept of morality and the understanding of what right and wrong is. Nothing, no extenuating circumstances or even necessity can change the fact that we can not control another's life, liberty or property and remain right and moral. 

Bastiat: When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law. These two evils are of equal consequence, and it would be difficult for a person to choose between them. The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are "just" because law makes them so. Thus, in order to make plunder appear just and sacred to many consciences, it is only necessary for the law to decree and sanction it. Slavery, restrictions, and monopoly find defenders not only among those who profit from them but also among those who suffer from them.


Bink

On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Ken Costanzo <[address removed]> wrote:

Mike,

Apparently, you are so desperate to win this labeling debate that you are willing to pull a sentence out of context and misrepresent what was said. I guess this is why you chose to send your email without the thread of the conversation.

You know perfectly well that I did not say it was okay for the government to do something BECAUSE I was unable to do it myself. My statement (see below) was in response to Bing’s question (see below) regarding whether it was moral to collectively force someone to do something when we do not have the right to individually force them.

My answer was that while it may be impractical to do this individually, it was nevertheless moral because of the moral duty of companies who manufacture food not to produce harmful food.

Mike, you previously resorted to an ad hominem attack and now you misrepresent what was said. I didn’t know that there was such a thing as a LIBERAL libertarian. Did Saul Alinsky write a sequel – Rules for Libertarian Radicals?

 Ken-

Bing’s question:

Lets stick with the problem of "does anyone have the moral right to make someone else do something collectively that they do not have the right to do individually?"

My response:

If I could deal directly with the manufacturer of every food product I buy and force them to tell me if their product contained GMOs, I would do so. However, this is not practical. However, if it was possible to do this, and everyone who wanted this information did it, the burden on manufacturers to respond individually to each person would be far more costly than a change to their label.
 
The reason people, individually or collectively, have the right to obtain this information is that food is a necessity of life. We cannot choose not to eat. Therefore, the manufacturers of food products have a greater moral responsibility to their customers that the manufacturers of other types of products. A law requiring them to meet this moral responsibility is not plunder.


 
> To: [address removed]
> From: [address removed]
> Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> Date: Tue, 16 Oct[masked]:45:46 -0400
>
> Here it is. Ken believes that since he can't make businesses do what
> he wants then he subscribes to the idea that the government can make
> them do his bidding. "If4 I could deal directly with the manufacturer
> of every food product I buy and force them to tell me if their
> product contained GMOs, I would do so."
>
> Ken please ad admit that you believe in democracy where the majority
> can rule the minority.
>
> Another thing that amazing me is the two strongest advocates for this
> prop 37, I have observed eat some of the most unhealthy food along
> with me. I drain a half a cup of lard off some hamburger I cooked
> this week and east a lot of those Natural Valley crunchy bars. I of
> course read the label but that didn't stop me. If only the label said
> hazardous to your health I would not have destroyed myself like this.
>
> The so called natural foods are on one side of this (with the
> exception of trader joes) and the GMO producers on the other side.
> This is nothing more than GM trying to get an upper hand over Ford at
> the expense of all of us.
>
> Will the cost of food go up? Of course it will for this reason and
> for so many others. When we are all in the soup line will you blame
> it on not enough government or too much government? Please don't say
> then that you tried to make the government smaller prop 37 people.
>
> This is voting for more government and that is why some less
> government folks are not really less government.
>
> Let the nanny state crush us as it is and listen to Jesus say "Father
> forgive them for they know not what they do"
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 08:44 AM 10/16/2012, you wrote:
> >If4 I could deal directly with the manufacturer of every food
> >product I buy and force them to tell me if their product contained
> >GMOs, I would do so.
>
> Michael Benoit
> Ron Paul for President
> http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
>
>
>
>
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Bink
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