Re: [ronpaul-93] concealed carry and secrecy

From: Cameron B.
Sent on: Friday, October 19, 2012 9:13 AM
Leigh,

Government secrecy should be exposed, individual's secrecy protected.  If you believe that you have a right to know whether someone is carrying a concealed weapon, what else do you have a right to know about what they have, hold, or carry?  If the basis for this is perceived potential threat to others, then it is a dangerously slippery slope... knives, nail file in purse, other? If you would want to know and feel a need and/or right to know whether someone is carrying a gun, what about whether the home that you walk by has guns in it?  Maybe they should have to post a placard outside so that people know there are dangerous tools within.  The right of people to be secure in their homes and their persons includes not being compelled to reveal what they conceal on their person or in their home.

I am by no means an anarchist, and I believe government "solutions" are sometimes a necessary evil, but when looking at possible infringements on liberty, we must be vigilant to consider how a possibly common sense approach can be taken to a tyrannical extreme by government.  

"Someday only government goons will be wearing concealed weapons" -- yes, if law abiding private individuals are restricted from doing so.

In liberty,
Cameron

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Leigh Skinner <[address removed]> wrote:
Actually, Mike, the answer is YES you do.  I believe anyone carrying a gun should have to wear it on their belt for others to see.  Someday only government goons will be wearing concealed weapons.
 
Leigh
It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Samuel Adams
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. Frederic Bastiat



From: Mike Benoit <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thu, October 18,[masked]:32:59 PM

Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation

So are concealed carry permits the use of force? Should I not know who is or is not carrying a gun? Don't I have a right to know?

Mike
At 04:47 PM 10/18/2012, you wrote:
> The withholding of the information someone needs to make an informed decision is a type of force.
>
> Ken-
>
>
> > To: [address removed]
> > From: [address removed]
> > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> > Date: Thu, 18 Oct[masked]:43:20 -0400
> >
> > Ken, do you seriously believe that people who are
> > against mandatory labeling for food products are
> > using force to make you eat GMO products?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> > At 05:45 PM 10/17/2012, you wrote:
> > >Re.: "Are you against allowing companies who produce
> > >products with gmo in them from engaging in the
> > >market place with those of us who do not care about gmo?"
> > >
> > >Absolutely not. If the products are labeled you
> > >will be able to eat GMO foods exclusively if you
> > >chose to. And, those of us who don't want to eat
> > >these foods will be free not to eat them.
> > >
> > >We are not trying to tell you what to eat.
> > >However, you seem intent on forcing us to eat
> > >GMO food. This use of "force" is very unlibertarian and not "moral".
> > >
> > >Ken-
> > >
> > >
> > > > To: [address removed]
> > > > From: [address removed]
> > > > Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural
> > > vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> > > > Date: Wed, 17 Oct[masked]:08:36 -0400
> > > >
> > > > David, I am sorry you want to sell cars that
> > > > explode and kill people. If that is your
> > > > intention labeling will not help us. In fact do
> > > > you think a murderer will be deterred if you make
> > > > it mandatory that he label the products he intends to kill people with?
> > > >
> > > > You seem to think the labeling will stop the murderer.
> > > > I take you don't want to prohibit GMO you just
> > > > want to make the users label the product GMO
> > > >
> > > > Using that logic of the car manufacture who wants
> > > > to kill I think that your opinion is the
> > > > producers of products with GMO in them all want
> > > > to kill us and that if we make them disclose
> > > that on a label we will be safe.
> > > >
> > > > This translates to you want to prohibit a
> > > > producer of a product with GMO in it from selling
> > > > that product without a label even though people
> > > > like me do not care. So you think government has
> > > > the right to interfer with the right to contract.
> > > >
> > > > I have often seen you eat fast food. Do you check
> > > > with the producer to see if GMO is part of that food?
> > > >
> > > > Are you against allowing companies who produce
> > > > products with gmo in them from engaging in the
> > > > market place with those of us who do not care about gmo?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 09:38 AM 10/17/2012, you wrote:
> > > > >Ken Ken Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >If I want to sell cars that explode and kill
> > > > >your family, by design, at 42 miles on the
> > > > >odometer then you have no right to force me to
> > > > >disclose that my product will kill you. How dare you!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >From: Ken Costanzo <[address removed]>
> > > > >To: [address removed]
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 16,[masked]:41 PM
> > > > >Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural
> > > > >vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> > > > >
> > > > >A food manufacturer does not have the right to
> > > > >put poison in the food he sells to me. And, even
> > > > >if there is not yet a law prohibiting a
> > > > >particular poison because not enough people have
> > > > >died from it, That manufacturer does not have
> > > > >the right to hide the fact that the food
> > > > >contains a suspected poison by failing to
> > > > >disclose this information. In fact, there is
> > > > >zero monetary cost to adding this information to
> > > > >the label. The reason for hiding it is the fact
> > > > >that people, if they knew about it, would not buy his product.
> > > > >
> > > > >It is the manufacturer who is acting immorally.
> > > > >A law requiring him to cease his immorality is
> > > > >not a violation of libertarian principles.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ken-
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------
> > > > >From: [address removed]
> > > > >To: [address removed]
> > > > >Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural
> > > > >vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> > > > >Date: Tue, 16 Oct[masked]:59:18 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > >Ken,
> > > > >Morality is usually, if not always, an is or
> > > > >isn't proposition. There is no or little gray area.
> > > > >Morality is always a choice of conscious,
> > > > >morality however is often misrepresented by law.
> > > > >So if it is immoral for me as an individual to
> > > > >steal your property or your right to manage your
> > > > >business as you see fit, then how can it be
> > > > >moral for you to enlist government to accomplish this for you?
> > > > >
> > > > >Ken: "The reason people, individually or
> > > > >collectively, have the right to obtain this
> > > > >information is that food is a necessity of life."
> > > > >
> > > > >Bink: This business is not yours, individually
> > > > >or collectively and you do not have the right to
> > > > >force your will on them regardless of the fact
> > > > >that food is a necessity of life. "Necessity" is
> > > > >the catch all phrase that the bureaucrats use to
> > > > >plunder us continuously. Necessity does not
> > > > >elevate us from acting morally, even though
> > > > >others around us act immorally. An immortal law
> > > > >or regulation is not made moral just because it is a law.
> > > > >Bastiat: There is in all of us a strong
> > > > >disposition to believe that anything lawful is
> > > > >also legitimate. This belief is so widespread
> > > > >that many persons have erroneously held that
> > > > >things are "just" because law makes them so.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ken: "We cannot choose not to eat. Therefore,
> > > > >the manufacturers of food products have a
> > > > >greater moral responsibility to their customers
> > > > >that the manufacturers of other types of
> > > > >products. A law requiring them to meet this
> > > > >moral responsibility is not plunder."
> > > > >
> > > > >Bink: We can choose not to eat GMO, why would we
> > > > >prefer they labeled their GMO laden food anyway,
> > > > >so we can eat it while we read the label? There
> > > > >are lots of food that do not use GMO, there are
> > > > >many producers who already freely choose to
> > > > >label their food as Non GMO. This additional
> > > > >cost they willingly pay to promote their moral
> > > > >stance on safe food. There is no such thing as
> > > > >forced morality, you can not force morality but
> > > > >you can encourage a facsimile there of in the
> > > > >free market place. No such thing as greater or
> > > > >lesser morality, it either is or isn't. Plunder
> > > > >is more than just stealing, the law and even the
> > > > >acceptability of immoral law is a result of
> > > > >plunder. They have plundered the very concept of
> > > > >morality and the understanding of what right and
> > > > >wrong is. Nothing, no extenuating circumstances
> > > > >or even necessity can change the fact that we
> > > > >can not control another's life, liberty or
> > > > >property and remain right and moral.
> > > > >
> > > > >Bastiat: When law and morality contradict each
> > > > >other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of
> > > > >either losing his moral sense or losing his
> > > > >respect for the law. These two evils are of
> > > > >equal consequence, and it would be difficult for
> > > > >a person to choose between them. The nature of
> > > > >law is to maintain justice. This is so much the
> > > > >case that, in the minds of the people, law and
> > > > >justice are one and the same thing. There is in
> > > > >all of us a strong disposition to believe that
> > > > >anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief
> > > > >is so widespread that many persons have
> > > > >erroneously held that things are "just" because
> > > > >law makes them so. Thus, in order to make
> > > > >plunder appear just and sacred to many
> > > > >consciences, it is only necessary for the law to
> > > > >decree and sanction it. Slavery, restrictions,
> > > > >and monopoly find defenders not only among those
> > > > >who profit from them but also among those who suffer from them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Bink
> > > > >
> > > > >On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Ken Costanzo
> > > > ><<mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >Mike,
> > > > >Apparently, you are so desperate to win this
> > > > >labeling debate that you are willing to pull a
> > > > >sentence out of context and misrepresent what
> > > > >was said. I guess this is why you chose to send
> > > > >your email without the thread of the conversation.
> > > > >You know perfectly well that I did not say it
> > > > >was okay for the government to do something
> > > > >BECAUSE I was unable to do it myself. My
> > > > >statement (see below) was in response to
> > > > >Bingâ€â„„¢s„¢s question (see below) regarding whether
> > > >it was moral to collectively force someone to do
> > > > >something when we do not have the right to individually force them.
> > > > >My answer was that while it may be impractical
> > > > >to do this individually, it was nevertheless
> > > > >moral because of the moral duty of companies who
> > > > >manufacture food not to produce harmful food.
> > > > >Mike, you previously resorted to an ad hominem
> > > > >attack and now you misrepresent what was said. I
> > > > >didn’t know that thereere was such a thing as a
> > > &; > >LIBERAL libertarian. Did Saul Alinsky write a
> > > > >sequel – Rules for Libertariaan Radicals?
> > > > Ken-> > > >Bing’s question:
> > t; > > &g >Lets stick with the problem of "does anyone have
> > > > >the moral right to make someone else do
> > > > >something collectively that they do not have
> > > the right to do individually?"
> > > > >My response:
> > > > >If I could deal directly with the manufacturer
> > > > >of every food product I buy and force them to
> > > > >tell me if their product contained GMOs, I would
> > > > >do so. However, this is not practical. However,
> > > > >if it was possible to do this, and everyone who
> > > > >wanted this information did it, the burden on
> > > > >manufacturers to respond individually to each
> > > > >person would be far more costly than a change to their label.
> > > > >
> > > > >The reason people, individually or collectively,
> > > > >have the right to obtain this information is
> > > > >that food is a necessity of life. We cannot
> > > > >choose not to eat. Therefore, the manufacturers
> > > > >of food products have a greater moral
> > > > >responsibility to their customers that the
> > > > >manufacturers of other types of products. A law
> > > > >requiring them to meet this moral responsibility is not plunder.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]
> > > > > > From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] FDA bans natural
> > > > > vitamin B6 but allows GMO's & fluoridation
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct[masked]:45:46 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here it is. Ken believes that since he can't make businesses do what
> > > > > > he wants then he subscribes to the idea that the government can make
> > > > > > them do his bidding. "If4 I could deal directly with the manufacturer
> > > > > > of every food product I buy and force them to tell me if their
> > > > > > product contained GMOs, I would do so."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken please ad admit that you believe in democracy where the majority
> > > > > > can rule the minority.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another thing that amazing me is the two strongest advocates for this
> > > > > > prop 37, I have observed eat some of the most unhealthy food along
> > > > > > with me. I drain a half a cup of lard off some hamburger I cooked
> > > > > > this week and east a lot of those Natural Valley crunchy bars. I of
> > > > > > course read the label but that didn't stop me. If only the label said
> > > > > > hazardous to your health I would not have destroyed myself like this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The so called natural foods are on one side of this (with the
> > > > > > exception of trader joes) and the GMO producers on the other side.
> > > > > > This is nothing more than GM trying to get an upper hand over Ford at
> > > > > > the expense of all of us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Will the cost of food go up? Of course it will for this reason and
> > > > > > for so many others. When we are all in the soup line will you blame
> > > > > > it on not enough government or too much government? Please don't say
> > > > > > then that you tried to make the government smaller prop 37 people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is voting for more government and that is why some less
> > > > > > government folks are not really less government.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let the nanny state crush us as it is and listen to Jesus say "Father
> > > > > > forgive them for they know not what they do"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 08:44 AM 10/16/2012, you wrote:
> > > > > > >If4 I could deal directly with the manufacturer of every food
> > > > > > >product I buy and force them to tell me if their product contained
> > > > > > >GMOs, I would do so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael Benoit
> > > > > > Ron Paul for President
> > > > > > <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/>http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > >Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> > >[]
> > >
> >
> > Michael Benoit
> > Ron Paul for President
> > http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
> > This message was sent by Mike Benoit ([address removed]) from Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
> > To learn more about Mike Benoit, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/members/1364434/
> > Set my mailing list to email me
> >
> > As they are sent
> > http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=1
> >
> > In one daily email
> > http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=2
> >
> > Don't send me mailing list messages
> > http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=0
> > Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> >
>
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>
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list (<mailto:[address removed]>[address removed])
> This message was sent by Ken Costanzo ([address removed]) from <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/>Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
> To learn more about Ken Costanzo, visit his/her <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/members/17728681/>member profile
> Set my mailing list to email me <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=1>As they are sent | <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=2>In one daily email | <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=0>Don't send me mailing list messages
>
> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
> []
>

Michael Benoit
Ron Paul for President
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/



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Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
This message was sent by Mike Benoit ([address removed]) from Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
To learn more about Mike Benoit, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/members/1364434/
Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=1

In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=0
Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]





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Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Leigh Skinner ([address removed]) from Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
To learn more about Leigh Skinner, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]

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