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Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!

From: Leigh S.
Sent on: Thursday, January 31, 2013 12:40 PM
Cameron, around in 2008 or so the L.A. Times ran a piece about illegal immigration.  One of the points they listed was that only 2% of illegal immigrants work in agriculture.  So if we need unskilled laborers to pick produce, fine.  But that hardly means we need 11 million breaking into this country to game the system.
 
And your last line is quite true.  There are other reasons besides jobs for not wanting 11 million, which is actually many more, invading this country.  The welfare we spend on them would be better spent training Mexicans in Mexico to start their own businesses (more than wiping off cars at the border of selling trinkets on the street).  They certainly have a good work ethic, but maybe they need some help to build up their own country.  I'm talking about a U.S. business help, not our government help.
 
Leigh



From: Cameron Butler <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thu, January 31,[masked]:59:44 AM
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!

You keep saying we had a need for unskilled immigrant laborers in the past but no longer do.  The fact that "native" Americans are NOT lining up to compete for those low paying unskilled jobs says otherwise.  "these millions who are here illegally, are in many other jobs" - sure they are, but they also work in agriculture (and in many other unskilled low paying jobs that Americans aren't competing for).
Alabama passed a tough law on immigration/undocumented workers and many of the illegals fled the state.  The result?  A labor shortage in the ag sector.  
Fact: Most americans don't want to work really hard for low wages.  The farmers can only pay low wages and remain competitive.  It is unskilled labor = low wages.
The guest worker programs that exist do not fill this need.

In the forum of this group, do you really think that if I held the position of being a no borders libertarian that I would be afraid to own that?  Get real.  You can say you don't believe me when I describe my own position, but thats pretty childish.

The problem is that we have grown so accustomed to arguments getting very polarized, that when someone adopts arguments not aligning with either of the poles, it is just baffling to most people.

Fact: You do not have to be scared of mexicans stealing our jobs to be opposed to illegal immigration.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Ken Costanzo <[address removed]> wrote:

 
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
Date: Wed, 30 Jan[masked]:29:06 -0500


Throughout the history of this country it is a recurring theme that we have brought in (or allowed in) foreign workers to cheaply do certain kinds of labor.  Irish, Chinese, Mexican.  Why was it somehow ok to let Irish and Chinese work for meager wages to build American infrastructure, but it is anathema to have Mexican migrant workers pick strawberries so that you can buy a carton of strawberries for $3 instead of $8?
 
We already have a guest worker program for migrant farm workers. If all the illegals here were picking strawberries, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, these millions who are here illegally, are in many other jobs. Many of these jobs would be paying twice as much without this large pool of unskilled workers to hire from.
 
We allowed in large numbers of unskilled immigrants to build the American infrastructure because we needed large numbers of unskilled workers to do this. We no longer need large numbers of unskilled workers.



I think a lot of Americans who have been whipped into a frenzy by anti-foreigner rhetoric would be caught off guard when the prices of all the produce they enjoy goes through the roof if they got their way and displaced the immigrant workers who toil in the fields to pick the strawberries they enjoy.

This coming from an individual who opposes amnesty programs.  I am not a no borders libertarian. I don't believe you. I consider myself a constitutional conservative.  I just think some of these things with the immigration issue are not being well thought through.

It is one thing to say that you want to keep undesirable foreigners out but you want government to still let us freely travel out of the country if and when we choose.  Once you approve of government putting in place infrastructure that would allow them to restrict movement, do you really trust them not to ever restrict it?  When will we learn from history?
 
Mandatory E-Verify could not restrict Americans from traveling outside the country.
 
Ken-


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Mike Benoit <[address removed]> wrote:
I am afraid this is somewhat convoluted.

First off in the socialist world we live in if it takes 25 dollars an hour to get someone to pick strawberries that is not a free market as the socialism has already destroyed the free market. In this system children are prohibited from working so that further perverts the free market.

Manipulating the market is not a free market.

Mike
At 04:23 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
Re:  "There aren't any jobs Americans would refuse to do if then job paid enough."

So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries and the problem is solved, right?  In other words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.

If a wage of $25/hr. is what it takes to get someone to do the job, this IS free market capitalism. Bringing in illegal foreign labor to do the job cheaper, is a subversion of the free market. It is a process by which some employers benefit from the ability to pay wages that are lower than what they would have to pay to legal workers.

One of the reasons to limit immigration is to ensure that the free markey is not distorted with an over supply of unskilled labor or even skilled labor in any given occupation. ANY country's immigration policy is based on its national self interest, NOT the interest of those seeking to immigrate. The fact that immigrants, legal or illegal, will work cheaper than citizens is only beneficial to our country when there is a shortage of unskilled labor. We have no such shortage.



----------

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
Date: Tue, 29 Jan[masked]:54:23 -0500

Hi Leigh,

Just to be clear, I was not making an argument in favor of amnesty.  I just do not favor pushing for crackdown on immigrants based on fear mongering, but instead evaluating more consistent arguments.
I was also not disputing that 6 and 7 happen, but dismissing them because I consider it a non sequitur.  It is suggesting that immigrants are bad because some immigrants do bad things.  That is akin to suggesting that gun owners are dangerous extremists because some gun owners are militant white supremacists.  A non sequitur.

I am opposed to illegal immigration.  I am NOT in favor of amnesty.
At the same time, I oppose the demonization of foreigners with logical fallacies.

Ken,
You say, "There aren't any jobs Americans would refuse to do if then job paid enough."

So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries and the problem is solved, right?  In other words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.

I am opposed to illegal immigration and NOT in favor of amnesty, but migrant workers are willing to work hard in menial tasks for a modest wage, and for the most part "native" Americans are NOT.

-Cameron

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Leigh Skinner <<mailto:[address removed]>eleig[address removed]> wrote:
Cameron,

While most of your points are good, with government in the mix illegal immigration is doing more harm than good.  Do you really think if government programs are at fault that government amnesty will make it better, like it didn't do in 1986?

And 6&7 does happen.

Leigh
It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Samuel Adams
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. Frederic Bastiat



From: Cameron Butler <<mailto:[address removed]>b[address removed]>
To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]

Sent: Tue, January 29,[masked]:29:19 AM

Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!

Point #1 and #2-- "foreigners divide America".... criticized for their different body language... Lest we forget, all of these same concerns were levied at Irish and European Catholics and they all assimilated ok.  The issue is not the immigrants, its government programs.

Point #3-- "increased unemployment of natives".  I believe if you review the statistics you will see that illegal immigration slowed dramatically during the periods of time when unemployment increased for natives.  Its economic issues, not blaming foreigners that need to be addressed.  And no natives are lining up for jobs picking the fields that migrant workers fill.  Yes, I know someone can provide an anecdotal example of work they wanted to do that a "mexican" was doing for less, but that is anecdotal, and the free market at work.

Point #4-- "cost taxpayers money for..." - all of that garbage comes not from the immigrants, but from the excesses of big government.  I don't blame immigrants for the government choosing to do all of those things, though they sure are a handy scapegoat!

Point #5-- "foreigners bring their collectivist ideas"... some, yes.  Some also love freedom and appreciate the ideals of our founding more than many of the "natives" who have been lulled to sleep by the MSM over generations of conditioning...

Points #6 and #7-- Oh, come on...

Point #9-- No argument from me there...

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:56 AM, i4freedom <<mailto:[address removed]>ivalue@msn.com> wrote:

Open national border supporters such as libertarians should consider the negative consequences if foreigners are allowed into the U.S.A. at free will.
1. Foreigners divide America with language (verbal, written and body) and cultural differences which leads to misunderstandings, and violations of norms and laws. Birds of a feather flock together. Many foreigners do not want to assimilate to become Americanized. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
2. Hurts our culture with chaos and disagreements caused by cultural differences, alters our social norms (less defined) and lowers our standards.
3. Increased unemployment of natives (those born in the U.S.A.).
4. Cost taxpayers money for translators, government publications in other languages, ethnic and “sensitivity training†, different treatment of minorities, handouts (welfare, food stamps,…), minorrity departments at public schools, bilingual education….

5. Many foreigners bring their collectivist ideas to America and expect Americans to adopt these unconstitutional ideas.

6. Some foreigners come to America to escape retribution for a crime or other wrong.
7. Some foreigners come to America to commit crimes to profit, get even for bad foreign policy (“terrorism†) or “hey, hey, ho, ho, Western culture’s got to go†. Foreigners commit the most crimes.

8. Open borders would violate current national law and our Constitution article IV, section 4, and encourage the invasion as it did after the amnesty of 1986.
9. Politicians who want amnesty do so for political reasons (get more votes) only.
These points indicate that even legal immigration should be stopped. Close the borders (except for tourists)




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