Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!

From: Mike B.
Sent on: Friday, February 1, 2013 10:37 AM
Being with Ken on this one means; continuing 
welfare payments, free education, free health 
care, and violating more employers even the elderly who hire an illegal.

Mike

At 10:31 AM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
>Bink,
>
>The whole premise of your email is that our 
>Government would meet 7 items uniformily and 
>together in a quote-unquote plan.  That is a fantasy world.
>
>What Washington would actually do is pick from 
>your list the items that BENEFIT THEIR 
>re-election efforts regardless of the real world 
>impact it would do for the immigrants, the existing citizens
>of this country and economy.
>
>Sorry I am with Ken on this, Washington will 
>probably only do # 4 to get their hands on short 
>term tax revs. and get some votes...and that is their agenda with Amnesty.
>
>Then let us tax payers, pay for 2, 3, 5, and 
>possibly suffer the consequences of a "evil 
>doer" sliding in at the border (1) to do some 
>harm to our country fellowman, in order for us 
>to pay homage to our government and remind us we cannot live without them.
>
>America is gonna look like "Blade Runner" in the 
>next ten-fifteen years, English will not be the 
>dominate language if spoken at all, and anyone 
>with any remaining personal wealth will have escaped to an 'off world' colony.
>
>Bink -  73 % of Irvine, California that can be 
>privately owned is already owned by Chinese 
>Foreign Nationals...that is already "Blade Runner" in the making.
>
>JR
>
>________________­___
>James Reid
>Principal
>c. [masked]
><http://www.sprint...­
><mailto:[addr­ess removed]>[address­ removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jan 31, 2013, at 4:57 PM, BINK wrote:
>
>>I may have the solution to immigration in a nutshell:
>>    * Open the borders
>>    * stop ALL welfare for everyone
>>    * get rid of DOI (Department of Immigration)
>>    * give amnesty to all non-papered (please) pre Americans
>>    * get the government out of manipulating the (Presently not free) market
>>    * put the government back into its restricted Constitutional role
>>    * promote learning what freedom ACTUALLY is
>>
>>There is no legitimacy in expecting liberty for 
>>yourself while striping it from others.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Ken Costanzo wrote:
>>
>>>In one case where illegals were removed en 
>>>mass from employment at a meat packing plant 
>>>in Arkansas, that employer had to pay wages 
>>>50-75% higher in order to replace them with 
>>>legal workers. Were it not for the large pool 
>>>of unskilled labor provided by illegals, 
>>>minimum wage jobs would pay much higher wages. 
>>>I think this would be a good thing. We might 
>>>have to pay 15 cents more for hamberger at 
>>>McDonald­s, but we would save a lot more money 
>>>on the social services used by llegals. For 
>>>example,­ he national average cost of K - 12 
>>>educatio­n is $10,000 per year per student.
>>>
>>>
>>>--------­--
>>>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>Subject:­ Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>>>Date: Thu, 31 Jan[masked]:59:41 -0500
>>>
>>>You keep saying we had a need for unskilled 
>>>immigran­t laborers in the past but no longer 
>>>do.  The fact that "native" Americans are NOT 
>>>lining up to compete for those low paying 
>>>unskille­d jobs says otherwise.  "these 
>>>millions­ who are here illegally, are in many 
>>>other jobs" - sure they are, but they also 
>>>work in agriculture (and in many other 
>>>unskille­d low paying jobs that Americans aren't competing for).
>>>Alabama passed a tough law on 
>>>immigrat­ion/undocumented workers and many of 
>>>the illegals fled the state.  The result?  A labor shortage in the ag sector.
>>>Fact: Most americans don't want to work really 
>>>hard for low wages.  The farmers can only pay 
>>>low wages and remain competitive.  It is unskilled labor = low wages.
>>>The guest worker programs that exist do not fill this need.
>>>
>>>In the forum of this group, do you really 
>>>think that if I held the position of being a 
>>>no borders libertarian that I would be afraid 
>>>to own that?  Get real.  You can say you don't 
>>>believe me when I describe my own position, but thats pretty childish.
>>>
>>>The problem is that we have grown so 
>>>accustom­ed to arguments getting very 
>>>polarize­d, that when someone adopts arguments 
>>>not aligning with either of the poles, it is just baffling to most people.
>>>
>>>Fact: You do not have to be scared of mexicans 
>>>stealing­ our jobs to be opposed to illegal immigration.
>>>
>>>On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Ken Costanzo 
>>><<­mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------­--
>>>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>Subject:­ Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan[masked]:29:06 -0500
>>>
>>>
>>>Througho­ut the history of this country it is a 
>>>recurrin­g theme that we have brought in (or 
>>>allowed in) foreign workers to cheaply do 
>>>certain kinds of labor.  Irish, Chinese, 
>>>Mexican.­  Why was it somehow ok to let Irish 
>>>and Chinese work for meager wages to build 
>>>American­ infrastructure, but it is anathema to 
>>>have Mexican migrant workers pick strawberries 
>>>so that you can buy a carton of strawberries for $3 instead of $8?
>>>
>>>We already have a guest worker program for 
>>>migrant farm workers. If all the illegals here 
>>>were picking strawberries, I probably wouldn't 
>>>have a problem with it. In fact, these 
>>>millions­ who are here illegally, are in many 
>>>other jobs. Many of these jobs would be paying 
>>>twice as much without this large pool of unskilled workers to hire from.
>>>
>>>We allowed in large numbers of unskilled 
>>>immigran­ts to build the American 
>>>infrastr­ucture because we needed large numbers 
>>>of unskilled workers to do this. We no longer 
>>>need large numbers of unskilled workers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I think a lot of Americans who have been 
>>>whipped into a frenzy by anti-foreigner 
>>>rhetoric­ would be caught off guard when the 
>>>prices of all the produce they enjoy goes 
>>>through the roof if they got their way and 
>>>displace­d the immigrant workers who toil in 
>>>the fields to pick the strawberries they enjoy.
>>>
>>>This coming from an individual who opposes 
>>>amnesty programs.  I am not a no borders 
>>>libertar­ian. I don't believe you. I consider 
>>>myself a constitutional conservative.  I just 
>>>think some of these things with the 
>>>immigrat­ion issue are not being well thought through.
>>>
>>>It is one thing to say that you want to keep 
>>>undesira­ble foreigners out but you want 
>>>governme­nt to still let us freely travel out 
>>>of the country if and when we choose.  Once 
>>>you approve of government putting in place 
>>>infrastr­ucture that would allow them to 
>>>restrict­ movement, do you really trust them 
>>>not to ever restrict it?  When will we learn from history?
>>>
>>>Mandator­y E-Verify could not restrict 
>>>American­s from traveling outside the country.
>>>
>>>Ken-
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Mike Benoit 
>>><<­mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>>>I am afraid this is somewhat convoluted.
>>>
>>>First off in the socialist world we live in if 
>>>it takes 25 dollars an hour to get someone to 
>>>pick strawberries that is not a free market as 
>>>the socialism has already destroyed the free 
>>>market. In this system children are prohibited 
>>>from working so that further perverts the free market.
>>>
>>>Manipula­ting the market is not a free market.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>At 04:23 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
>>>Re:  "There aren't any jobs Americans would 
>>>refuse to do if then job paid enough."
>>>
>>>So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries 
>>>and the problem is solved, right?  In other 
>>>words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.
>>>
>>>If a wage of $25/hr. is what it takes to get 
>>>someone to do the job, this IS free market 
>>>capitali­sm. Bringing in illegal foreign labor 
>>>to do the job cheaper, is a subversion of the 
>>>free market. It is a process by which some 
>>>employer­s benefit from the ability to pay 
>>>wages that are lower than what they would have to pay to legal workers.
>>>
>>>One of the reasons to limit immigration is to 
>>>ensure that the free markey is not distorted 
>>>with an over supply of unskilled labor or even 
>>>skilled labor in any given occupation. ANY 
>>>country'­s immigration policy is based on its 
>>>national­ self interest, NOT the interest of 
>>>those seeking to immigrate. The fact that 
>>>immigran­ts, legal or illegal, will work 
>>>cheaper than citizens is only beneficial to 
>>>our country when there is a shortage of 
>>>unskille­d labor. We have no such shortage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------­--
>>>
>>>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>>>
>>>Subject:­ Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jan[masked]:54:23 -0500
>>>
>>>Hi Leigh,
>>>
>>>Just to be clear, I was not making an argument 
>>>in favor of amnesty.  I just do not favor 
>>>pushing for crackdown on immigrants based on 
>>>fear mongering, but instead evaluating more consistent arguments.
>>>I was also not disputing that 6 and 7 happen, 
>>>but dismissing them because I consider it a 
>>>non sequitur.  It is suggesting that 
>>>immigran­ts are bad because some immigrants do 
>>>bad things.  That is akin to suggesting that 
>>>gun owners are dangerous extremists because 
>>>some gun owners are militant white supremacists.  A non sequitur.
>>>
>>>I am opposed to illegal immigration.  I am NOT in favor of amnesty.
>>>At the same time, I oppose the demonization of 
>>>foreigne­rs with logical fallacies.
>>>
>>>Ken,
>>>You say, "There aren't any jobs Americans 
>>>would refuse to do if then job paid enough."
>>>
>>>So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries 
>>>and the problem is solved, right?  In other 
>>>words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.
>>>
>>>I am opposed to illegal immigration and NOT in 
>>>favor of amnesty, but migrant workers are 
>>>willing to work hard in menial tasks for a 
>>>modest wage, and for the most part "native" Americans are NOT.
>>>
>>>-Cameron­
>>>
>>>On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Leigh Skinner 
>>><<­mailto:[address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>>>Cameron,­
>>>
>>>While most of your points are good, with 
>>>governme­nt in the mix illegal immigration is 
>>>doing more harm than good.  Do you really 
>>>think if government programs are at fault that 
>>>governme­nt amnesty will make it better, like it didn't do in 1986?
>>>
>>>And 6&7 does happen.
>>>
>>>Leigh
>>>It does not take a majority to prevail, but 
>>>rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on 
>>>setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Samuel Adams
>>>Governme­nt is the great fiction through which 
>>>everybod­y endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. Frederic Bastiat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Cameron Butler 
>>><<­mailto:[address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]>
>>>To: 
>>><mail­to:[address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed] 
>>>
>>>
>>>Sent: Tue, January 29,[masked]:29:19 AM
>>>
>>>Subject:­ Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>>>
>>>Point #1 and #2-- "foreigners divide 
>>>America"­.... criticized for their different 
>>>body language... Lest we forget, all of these 
>>>same concerns were levied at Irish and 
>>>European­ Catholics and they all assimilated 
>>>ok.  The issue is not the immigrants, its government programs.
>>>
>>>Point #3-- "increased unemployment of 
>>>natives"­.  I believe if you review the 
>>>statisti­cs you will see that illegal 
>>>immigrat­ion slowed dramatically during the 
>>>periods of time when unemployment increased 
>>>for natives.  Its economic issues, not blaming 
>>>foreigne­rs that need to be addressed.  And no 
>>>natives are lining up for jobs picking the 
>>>fields that migrant workers fill.  Yes, I know 
>>>someone can provide an anecdotal example of 
>>>work they wanted to do that a "mexican" was 
>>>doing for less, but that is anecdotal, and the free market at work.
>>>
>>>Point #4-- "cost taxpayers money for..." - all 
>>>of that garbage comes not from the immigrants, 
>>>but from the excesses of big government.  I 
>>>don't blame immigrants for the government 
>>>choosing­ to do all of those things, though they sure are a handy scapegoat!
>>>
>>>Point #5-- "foreigners bring their 
>>>collecti­vist ideas"... some, yes.  Some also 
>>>love freedom and appreciate the ideals of our 
>>>founding­ more than many of the "natives" who 
>>>have been lulled to sleep by the MSM over generations of conditioning...
>>>
>>>Points #6 and #7-- Oh, come on...
>>>
>>>Point #9-- No argument from me there...
>>>
>>>On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:56 AM, i4freedom 
>>><<­mailto:[address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>>>
>>>Open national border supporters such as 
>>>libertar­ians should consider the negative 
>>>conseque­nces if foreigners are allowed into the U.S.A. at free will.
>>>1. Foreigners divide America with language 
>>>(verbal,­ written and body) and cultural 
>>>differen­ces which leads to misunderstandings, 
>>>and violations of norms and laws. Birds of a 
>>>feather flock together. Many foreigners do not 
>>>want to assimilate to become Americanized. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
>>>2. Hurts our culture with chaos and 
>>>disagree­ments caused by cultural differences, 
>>>alters our social norms (less defined) and lowers our standards.
>>>3. Increased unemployment of natives (those born in the U.S.A.).
>>>4. Cost taxpayers money for translators, 
>>>governme­nt publications in other languages, 
>>>ethnic and “sensitivity training†, 
>>>differen­t treatment of minororities, handouts 
>>>(welfare­, food stamps,…), minorrity 
>>>departme­nts at public schools, bilingual education….
>>>5. Many foreigners bring their collectivist 
>>>ideas to America and expect Americans to adopt these unconstitutional ideas.
>>>
>>>6. Some foreigners come to America to escape 
>>>retribut­ion for a crime or other wrong.
>>>7. Some foreigners come to America to commit 
>>>crimes to profit, get even for bad foreign 
>>>policy (“terrorismâ†) or “hey, hey, 
>>>ho, ho, Western cultureâre’s got to go†
>>>. Foreigners commit the most cost crimes.
>>>
>>>8. Open borders would violate current national 
>>>law and our Constitution article IV, section 
>>>4, and encourage the invasion as it did after the amnesty of 1986.
>>>9. Politicians who want amnesty do so for 
>>>politica­l reasons (get more votes) only.
>>>These points indicate that even legal 
>>>immigrat­ion should be stopped. Close the borders (except for tourists)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Michael Benoit
Ron Paul for President
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