Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!

From: Mike B.
Sent on: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:54 PM
Leight, you can't have more liberty screaming for more control.

Mike

At 02:43 PM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
>Dave, you have such a delicate way of putting 
>what I've been trying to explain.  By the way, 
>it was in the local news this week that the San 
>Diego Sheriff's Dept is looking for 300 
>recruits.  Some they hire will be seasoned 
>personnel from other police and sheriff's depts, 
>but some will be brand new recruits.  If one is 
>worried about our sheriff's dept, consider 
>applying and maybe you'll get hired and can use 
>it to spread liberty there.  All that's needed 
>sometimes is one "bad apple" in a group to make all the difference.
>
>Libertarianism is great in theory, and I try to 
>advance liberty whenever and wherever I 
>can.  But the reality of life is that our 
>republic is pretty much over and I hope the 
>spread of liberty that Mike mentions will win in 
>the end.  But this country is worse off than the 
>British 13 colonies were back in 1776.  A 
>revolution back then was against great odds, but 
>not as great as the odds are today.  Ignoring 
>the evil in GMO's and fluoridation and 
>chemtrails and other government enabling evils 
>and shouting LIBERTY all the time will not win 
>against the IRS, the Fed, the banks, the dept of 
>education, illegal immigration, and all the 
>other liberty crushing entities out there.  The 
>Founders fought for liberty by pledging their 
>lives, their property, and their sacred 
>honor.  Capitulating to illegal immigration 
>because it gives employers the right to hire the 
>cheapest labor isn't honorable because it was 
>set up by the controllers whose hands some in 
>this group are playing into.  How much of a 
>solution is it to eat our food from our own 
>gardens that are rained down on by chemtrails 
>(unless you have a hothouse) and water those 
>plants with fluoridated water?  So all of us are 
>being poisoned no matter how we try to avoid it.
>
>We all need to find common ground amid our 
>differences.  I campaigned for Mike and for Dr. 
>Paul, and it wasn't a waste of time even if they 
>both didn't win.  For anyone reading this, do 
>you honestly believe 20-30 million illegal 
>immigrants really don't have an impact on this 
>country?  Unemployment figures released this 
>week show unemployment is up.  These aren't 
>those that were unemployed for several years 
>because those people have quit looking for 
>jobs.  These recent figures are newly unemployed 
>workers.  The cause isn't just illegal 
>immigrants, but also legal contract 
>workers.  When foreign workers are employed in 
>this country and domestic workers aren't, there is something amiss.
>
>Leigh
>
>
>
>From: Dave <[address removed]>
>To: [address removed]
>Sent: Fri, February 1,[masked]:31:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>
>9. America is already a shit hole. And soon to 
>be taken over by "third country nationals" who 
>will bring even more socialism, fascism, & 
>communism all bought and paid for by the gloablists,
>CFR, through corp. media, lobbyists, and 
>K-street. The enforcement mechinisms will be the 
>Judges appointed by bought out politicans, the 
>IRS, Federal Reserve. The storm troopers to enforce it all will be
>the military, homeland secuirty and the local "peace officers".
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Costanzo <[address removed]>
>To: ronpaul-93 <[address removed]>
>Sent: Thu, Jan 31,[masked]:35 pm
>Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>
>You forgot Number 8: Watch as America turns into a third world shit hole.
>
>
>----------
>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>Date: Thu, 31 Jan[masked]:57:02 -0500
>
>I may have the solution to immigration in a nutshell:
>    * Open the borders
>    * stop ALL welfare for everyone
>    * get rid of DOI (Department of Immigration)
>    * give amnesty to all non-papered (please) pre Americans
>    * get the government out of manipulating the (Presently not free) market
>    * put the government back into its restricted Constitutional role
>    * promote learning what freedom ACTUALLY is
>
>There is no legitimacy in expecting liberty for 
>yourself while striping it from others.
>
>
>
>On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Ken Costanzo wrote:
>
>In one case where illegals were removed en mass 
>from employment at a meat packing plant in 
>Arkansas, that employer had to pay wages 50-75% 
>higher in order to replace them with legal 
>workers. Were it not for the large pool of 
>unskilled labor provided by illegals, minimum 
>wage jobs would pay much higher wages. I think 
>this would be a good thing. We might have to pay 
>15 cents more for hamberger at McDonalds, but we 
>would save a lot more money on the social 
>services used by llegals. For example, he 
>national average cost of K - 12 education is $10,000 per year per student.
>
>
>----------
>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>Date: Thu, 31 Jan[masked]:59:41 -0500
>
>You keep saying we had a need for unskilled 
>immigrant laborers in the past but no longer 
>do.  The fact that "native" Americans are NOT 
>lining up to compete for those low paying 
>unskilled jobs says otherwise.  "these millions 
>who are here illegally, are in many other jobs" 
>- sure they are, but they also work in 
>agriculture (and in many other unskilled low 
>paying jobs that Americans aren't competing for).
>Alabama passed a tough law on 
>immigration/undo­cumented workers and many of the 
>illegals fled the state.  The result?  A labor shortage in the ag sector.
>Fact: Most americans don't want to work really 
>hard for low wages.  The farmers can only pay 
>low wages and remain competitive.  It is unskilled labor = low wages.
>The guest worker programs that exist do not fill this need.
>
>In the forum of this group, do you really think 
>that if I held the position of being a no 
>borders libertarian that I would be afraid to 
>own that?  Get real.  You can say you don't 
>believe me when I describe my own position, but thats pretty childish.
>
>The problem is that we have grown so accustomed 
>to arguments getting very polarized, that when 
>someone adopts arguments not aligning with 
>either of the poles, it is just baffling to most people.
>
>Fact: You do not have to be scared of mexicans 
>stealing our jobs to be opposed to illegal immigration.
>
>On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Ken Costanzo 
><<mailto:[­address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>
>
>
>----------
>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>Date: Wed, 30 Jan[masked]:29:06 -0500
>
>
>Throughout the history of this country it is a 
>recurring theme that we have brought in (or 
>allowed in) foreign workers to cheaply do 
>certain kinds of labor.  Irish, Chinese, 
>Mexican.  Why was it somehow ok to let Irish and 
>Chinese work for meager wages to build American 
>infrastructure, but it is anathema to have 
>Mexican migrant workers pick strawberries so 
>that you can buy a carton of strawberries for $3 instead of $8?
>
>We already have a guest worker program for 
>migrant farm workers. If all the illegals here 
>were picking strawberries, I probably wouldn't 
>have a problem with it. In fact, these millions 
>who are here illegally, are in many other jobs. 
>Many of these jobs would be paying twice as much 
>without this large pool of unskilled workers to hire from.
>
>We allowed in large numbers of unskilled 
>immigrants to build the American infrastructure 
>because we needed large numbers of unskilled 
>workers to do this. We no longer need large numbers of unskilled workers.
>
>
>
>I think a lot of Americans who have been whipped 
>into a frenzy by anti-foreigner rhetoric would 
>be caught off guard when the prices of all the 
>produce they enjoy goes through the roof if they 
>got their way and displaced the immigrant 
>workers who toil in the fields to pick the strawberries they enjoy.
>
>This coming from an individual who opposes 
>amnesty programs.  I am not a no borders 
>libertarian. I don't believe you. I consider 
>myself a constitutional conservative.  I just 
>think some of these things with the immigration 
>issue are not being well thought through.
>
>It is one thing to say that you want to keep 
>undesirable foreigners out but you want 
>government to still let us freely travel out of 
>the country if and when we choose.  Once you 
>approve of government putting in place 
>infrastructure that would allow them to restrict 
>movement, do you really trust them not to ever 
>restrict it?  When will we learn from history?
>
>Mandatory E-Verify could not restrict Americans 
>from traveling outside the country.
>
>Ken-
>
>
>On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Mike Benoit 
><<mailto:[­address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>I am afraid this is somewhat convoluted.
>
>First off in the socialist world we live in if 
>it takes 25 dollars an hour to get someone to 
>pick strawberries that is not a free market as 
>the socialism has already destroyed the free 
>market. In this system children are prohibited 
>from working so that further perverts the free market.
>
>Manipulating the market is not a free market.
>
>Mike
>At 04:23 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
>Re:  "There aren't any jobs Americans would 
>refuse to do if then job paid enough."
>
>So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries 
>and the problem is solved, right?  In other 
>words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.
>
>If a wage of $25/hr. is what it takes to get 
>someone to do the job, this IS free market 
>capitalism. Bringing in illegal foreign labor to 
>do the job cheaper, is a subversion of the free 
>market. It is a process by which some employers 
>benefit from the ability to pay wages that are 
>lower than what they would have to pay to legal workers.
>
>One of the reasons to limit immigration is to 
>ensure that the free markey is not distorted 
>with an over supply of unskilled labor or even 
>skilled labor in any given occupation. ANY 
>country's immigration policy is based on its 
>national self interest, NOT the interest of 
>those seeking to immigrate. The fact that 
>immigrants, legal or illegal, will work cheaper 
>than citizens is only beneficial to our country 
>when there is a shortage of unskilled labor. We have no such shortage.
>
>
>
>----------
>
>From: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>To: <mailto:[address removed]>[address­ removed]
>
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>Date: Tue, 29 Jan[masked]:54:23 -0500
>
>Hi Leigh,
>
>Just to be clear, I was not making an argument 
>in favor of amnesty.  I just do not favor 
>pushing for crackdown on immigrants based on 
>fear mongering, but instead evaluating more consistent arguments.
>I was also not disputing that 6 and 7 happen, 
>but dismissing them because I consider it a non 
>sequitur.  It is suggesting that immigrants are 
>bad because some immigrants do bad things.  That 
>is akin to suggesting that gun owners are 
>dangerous extremists because some gun owners are 
>militant white supremacists.  A non sequitur.
>
>I am opposed to illegal immigration.  I am NOT in favor of amnesty.
>At the same time, I oppose the demonization of 
>foreigners with logical fallacies.
>
>Ken,
>You say, "There aren't any jobs Americans would 
>refuse to do if then job paid enough."
>
>So just pay people $25/hr to pick strawberries 
>and the problem is solved, right?  In other 
>words, you don't believe in free market capitalism.
>
>I am opposed to illegal immigration and NOT in 
>favor of amnesty, but migrant workers are 
>willing to work hard in menial tasks for a 
>modest wage, and for the most part "native" Americans are NOT.
>
>-Cameron
>
>On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Leigh Skinner 
><<mailto:[­address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>Cameron,
>
>While most of your points are good, with 
>government in the mix illegal immigration is 
>doing more harm than good.  Do you really think 
>if government programs are at fault that 
>government amnesty will make it better, like it didn't do in 1986?
>
>And 6&7 does happen.
>
>Leigh
>It does not take a majority to prevail, but 
>rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on 
>setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Samuel Adams
>Government is the great fiction through which 
>everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. Frederic Bastiat
>
>
>
>From: Cameron Butler 
><<mailto:[­address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]>
>To: 
><mailto:[addr­ess removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed] 
>
>
>Sent: Tue, January 29,[masked]:29:19 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] Amnesty attempt again!!
>
>Point #1 and #2-- "foreigners divide 
>America".... criticized for their different body 
>language... Lest we forget, all of these same 
>concerns were levied at Irish and European 
>Catholics and they all assimilated ok.  The 
>issue is not the immigrants, its government programs.
>
>Point #3-- "increased unemployment of 
>natives".  I believe if you review the 
>statistics you will see that illegal immigration 
>slowed dramatically during the periods of time 
>when unemployment increased for natives.  Its 
>economic issues, not blaming foreigners that 
>need to be addressed.  And no natives are lining 
>up for jobs picking the fields that migrant 
>workers fill.  Yes, I know someone can provide 
>an anecdotal example of work they wanted to do 
>that a "mexican" was doing for less, but that is 
>anecdotal, and the free market at work.
>
>Point #4-- "cost taxpayers money for..." - all 
>of that garbage comes not from the immigrants, 
>but from the excesses of big government.  I 
>don't blame immigrants for the government 
>choosing to do all of those things, though they sure are a handy scapegoat!
>
>Point #5-- "foreigners bring their collectivist 
>ideas"... some, yes.  Some also love freedom and 
>appreciate the ideals of our founding more than 
>many of the "natives" who have been lulled to 
>sleep by the MSM over generations of conditioning...
>
>Points #6 and #7-- Oh, come on...
>
>Point #9-- No argument from me there...
>
>On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:56 AM, i4freedom 
><<mailto:[­address removed]><mail­to:[address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
>
>Open national border supporters such as 
>libertarians should consider the negative 
>consequences if foreigners are allowed into the U.S.A. at free will.
>1. Foreigners divide America with language 
>(verbal, written and body) and cultural 
>differences which leads to misunderstandings, 
>and violations of norms and laws. Birds of a 
>feather flock together. Many foreigners do not 
>want to assimilate to become Americanized. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
>2. Hurts our culture with chaos and 
>disagreements caused by cultural differences, 
>alters our social norms (less defined) and lowers our standards.
>3. Increased unemployment of natives (those born in the U.S.A.).
>4. Cost taxpayers money for translators, 
>government publications in other languages, 
>ethnic and “s“sensitivity training†, 
>different treatment of minorities, hanndouts 
>(welfare, food stamps,…), minorrity departments 
>at public schhools, bilingual education….
>
>5. Many foreigners bring their collectivist 
>ideas to America and expect Americans to adopt these unconstitutional ideas.
>
>6. Some foreigners come to America to escape 
>retribution for a crime or other wrong.
>7. Some foreigners come to America to commit 
>crimes to profit, get even for bad foreign 
>policy (“tererrorism†) or “hey, hey, 
>ho, ho, Western crn culture’s got to go†. 
>Foreigners commicommit the most crimes.
>
>8. Open borders would violate current national 
>law and our Constitution article IV, section 4, 
>and encourage the invasion as it did after the amnesty of 1986.
>9. Politicians who want amnesty do so for 
>political reasons (get more votes) only.
>These points indicate that even legal 
>immigration should be stopped. Close the borders (except for tourists)
>
>
>
>
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Michael Benoit
Ron Paul for President
http://www.meetup...­ 

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