Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

From: Mike B.
Sent on: Saturday, February 2, 2013 2:03 PM
Any government that favors one group over another 
is not the kind I would support. Government 
should not be involved in education either.
This amnesty question is one of diversion. Keep 
the masses in argument over a symptom of a system gone bad.
I ask for government to do less not more

mike

At 11:29 AM 2/2/2013, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>Agree on the vague terminology and 60's 
>comparison.  Note to all: <1964 was also before 
>Johnson's "great society" and welfare. So the 
>risk of tax payer support to immigrants in the 
>event of economic downturn was less 
>costly.  Crossing the border -  was a risk to 
>the immigrants and a strong motive to 
>succeed.  Once arrived there were NO freebies from the Fed.
>
>I would add to this...
>
>How would you describe a government that 
>encourages and issues work VISAs in unlimited 
>quantities to "non-profit" organizations to 
>bring in off-shore labor to assist corporations 
>to drive down costs, increase profits and then 
>shield then higher profits from taxes off shore, 
>which then results in high unemployment and high 
>welfare costs that then born by the fewer and 
>fewer people that are actually working.  Then 
>add to that a second Government, tax payer paid 
>program to train English to off shore workers 
>encourage them immigrate to the US and take the 
>very jobs from the people that paid for the 
>training with their hard earned dollars via tax.
>
>I do not call that an 'open border'...I call 
>that a 'cross our border recruitment' program.
>
>For every action there is consequence. The 
>consequence of amnesty is during economic 
>downturns the tax payers then pay to support the 
>newly 'legalized' workforce that find themselves 
>also out of work, and a high cost burden to the 
>previously established society.  Legalizing 
>these workers increases the odds of them losing 
>there jobs...as the employer is now faced with 
>increased taxes and costs keeping them 
>hired.  Which defeats the purpose of illegal labor.
>
>Amnesty is not unlike the 
>Clinton/Bush/Oba­ma  'cross the border recruitment program'.
>
>Truly 'Open Borders' is something that looks 
>great on paper and in theory, but in reality 
>wrecks havoc on the economic free market, it 
>breaks what is known as the economic 
>multi-threading,­ which is one basis of 'competitive' free markets.
>
>ref: Hong Kong turn of the century via using 
>Chinese workers encouraged by UK business men 
>(drug industries) operating in Hong Kong to reduce labor costs.
>ref: 1980's German manufacturers (VW, Mercedes 
>and BMW) pleading (successfully) to the 
>Government to close the borders, as the onrush 
>of new foriegn labor was causing a havoc with 
>manufacturing quality, and actually killing 
>profits in the long run, since these companies 
>cared about the quality of there products and 
>suffered falling sales and higher service costs.
>
>
>
>note: a good starter on economics, and the 
>failure of 'global economic threading'  Nigel Ferguson "Ascent of Money".
>Particular attention
>1: The breakdown and crash of the Global Economy of 19th Century
>2: French Bond Market Bubble/Bust, and John 
>Law.  Not unlike the Bond Market Bubble/Bust the USA is facing around 2015.
>
>JR
>
>
>
>On Feb 1, 2013, at 4:25 PM, Mike Benoit wrote:
>
> > Ken, you try to frame the argument in terms 
> that are vague and nebulous. These terms like 
> open borders, pro life and pro choice exclude 
> so many other options. For instance we have 
> "closed borders" especially in comparison to 
> the 60's but do we really? They are open into 
> America and closed to get out. Back in the 60's 
> the borders were pretty much open yet we had no 
> problem with immigration. Workers would migrate 
> then the bright idea came to close the borders 
> and then workers would come and stay as it was 
> too difficult to go back and forth, then they 
> would send for family members and etc etc. 
> Immigration is not the problem. Prohibitions against it are the problem.
> >
> > If this is too much in the form of the Oracle 
> of Delphi for you then I submit that I am a poor teacher.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 03:55 PM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
> >> So, then come out and say that you are in 
> favor of open boarders, or state what you would 
> do to deal with the problem of immigration.
> >>
> >> Ken-
> >>
> >>
> >> > To: [address removed]
> >> > From: [address removed]
> >> > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
> >> > Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:44:33 -0500
> >> >
> >> > It case you missed it I favor freedom and a
> >> > system that secures individual rights not some
> >> > collective view of rights. I favor people being
> >> > able to come into my home as long as they are
> >> > invited by one of the residents and that they
> >> > mean no harm. I favor the idea that jobs belong
> >> > to those who have them to give not some mobocracy.
> >> >
> >> > I don't favor socialism by punishing those who
> >> > defend themselves against it by hiring whom they
> >> > wish to hire. I don't favor the argument that you
> >> > can't stop socialism so lets stop work.
> >> >
> >> > I am afraid you don't consider what anyone has to
> >> > say as being a contribution to the 
> discussion unless they agree with you.
> >> >
> >> > I am sick and tired of folks who think they can
> >> > dictate to others who they hire or not hire or do
> >> > what they will with the labeling of their products.
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > At 12:37 PM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
> >> > >Do you have a point? Do you have a position? Do
> >> > >you favor open boarders? Do you have any
> >> > >solutions to offer? Do you have any ideas?
> >> > >
> >> > >Sarcasm and criticism only go so far. They do
> >> > >not contribute to the discussion.
> >> > >
> >> > >Ken-
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > To: [address removed]
> >> > > > From: [address removed]
> >> > > > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
> >> > > > Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:07:00 -0500
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Yea why try to find out the cause (place the
> >> > > > blame) just add more fuel to the fire. Punish
> >> > > > employers for doing what they have a right to do.
> >> > > > That will work as we know our wonderful social
> >> > > > programs will never be eliminated as the only
> >> > > > thing wrong with them is the wrong 
> sort of people are getting the plunder.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This is so funny close borders brought us
> >> > > > millions of illegals where when we had open
> >> > > > borders a lot less. With open borders migrant
> >> > > > workers went home after payday most all won.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Those jobs they come for won't be handle by those
> >> > > > who benefit from all the wonderful socialist
> >> > > > programs to not work. So lets punish the producers more.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Mike
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > At 11:52 AM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
> >> > > > >Why the big discussion on where to place the
> >> > > > >blame? In fact, there's plenty of blame to go
> >> > > > >around. If we agree that illegal immigration is
> >> > > > >a problem, we can discuss the best way to solve the problem.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Some seem to be saying that we should cancel all
> >> > > > >social service programs because they serve a
> >> > > > >magnet for illegals to come here. First of all,
> >> > > > >it's a waste of time to talk about this because
> >> > > > >it isn't going to happen. In addition, even if
> >> > > > >all social service programs were cancelled we
> >> > > > >would still have a problem with illegal
> >> > > > >immigration because the biggest magnet is jobs.
> >> > > > >Making the use of E-Verify mandatory is
> >> > > > >something that can be done and it would solve
> >> > > > >most of the problem. In fact, it's probably the
> >> > > > >only way we can effectively address this problem.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >If someone wants to argue in favor of open
> >> > > > >boarders, they should argue for open boarders on
> >> > > > >the merits of this issue instead of arguing
> >> > > > >against measures to deal with this problem
> >> > > or talking about who is to blame.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Ken-
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >----------
> >> > > > >From: [address removed]
> >> > > > >To: [address removed]
> >> > > > >Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
> >> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:26:37 -0500
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Giving guns to people who then go on to
> >> > > > >murder? The problem with that analogy is there
> >> > > > >is nothing wrong, morally, with you giving a gun
> >> > > > >to someone. In your analogy the only ones
> >> > > > >committing an offense from a moral standpoint
> >> > > > >are the ones who proceed to murder.
> >> > > > >Conversely, in the actual situation, government
> >> > > > >is taking from the rest of us through taxation
> >> > > > >and the threat of force and redistributing a big
> >> > > > >portion to people who are not citizens. Perhaps
> >> > > > >a better analogy would be you going out and
> >> > > > >stealing a bunch of stuff and then giving it to
> >> > > > >people and they are guilty of accepting stolen
> >> > > > >property. Yes, still guilty, but which is the bigger offense??
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >"having the states cater to their needs when it
> >> > > > >comes to signs, special treatment, etc." - are
> >> > > > >illegals themselves really forcing the catering,
> >> > > > >or is it liberal / nanny state politicians
> >> > > > >trying to pander to a constituency. Who is
> >> > > > >actually responsible for the "catering"?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Those of us who are blaming government in this
> >> > > > >whole equation and not the immigrants keep
> >> > > > >getting accused throughout this thread of
> >> > > > >thinking the weight of immigrants on our system
> >> > > > >is not a problem (or favoring "no borders", or
> >> > > > >such nonsense). To the contrary, we recognize
> >> > > > >the weight of the problem, we just think the
> >> > > > >blame is deservedly layed at the feet of
> >> > > > >out-of-control government. Those who cannot see
> >> > > > >government encouraging/promotin­g, enabling, and
> >> > > > >"catering" to these problems is "clearly not leaving [their] home".
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Ryan
> >> > > > ><<mailto:[­address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
> >> > > > >No one denies the incentive and the "cause". But
> >> > > > >to presume people aren't taking advantage of it,
> >> > > > >knowingly, and people are just fine with not
> >> > > > >learning English, assimilating and having the
> >> > > > >states cater to their needs when it comes to
> >> > > > >signs, special treatment ect.. is just ridiculous.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >So basically, if I give guns out to people and a
> >> > > > >lot of them start shooting others, it's not
> >> > > > >their problem right? The symptom (me) is. It's
> >> > > > >the same thing. There are causes and effects in
> >> > > > >life. One doesn't exist with out the other.
> >> > > > >Government welfare, and a hugely large
> >> > > > >population ( millions raging into double digits
> >> > > > >) of non-English speaking individuals who many
> >> > > > >collectively come together and just pretend the
> >> > > > >U.S doesn't exist, are both problems.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >It's not 5 people here. This is years of
> >> > > > >witnessing this change and lack of care. And if
> >> > > > >you deny it, while living in California, you're
> >> > > > >clearly not leaving your home. Can we honestly
> >> > > > >say here that if millions of us decided to move
> >> > > > >to a country and refused to speak the language,
> >> > > > >gathered up together and interacted only with
> >> > > > >each other, demanded signs for us that we could
> >> > > > >read, to drive, to get library cards and bus
> >> > > > >basses that after a certain amount of 
> time that wouldn't cause friction?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Why is the U.S, with the most diverse population
> >> > > > >in the world so great? People at least
> >> > > > >understand English, they've assimilated with out
> >> > > > >removing their culture ( unless they wanted too
> >> > > > >) and became American citizens first. Take all
> >> > > > >three of those criteria away and apparently it's
> >> > > > >noting but people trying to find a scapegoat? lol, ok.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Phil Boncer
> >> > > > ><<mailto:[­address removed]>[address­ removed]> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Yes, thatâ€ÃƒÂ¢ÃƒÂ­Â¢„¢s 
> what I am saying. T. That cost you
> >> > > > >cite was NOT caused by “forei­gnersâ€?;
>
> >> > > it was caused b by YOUR OWN OWN GOVERNMENT.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >If you misplace the blame, and fail to see the
> >> > > > >actual cause, you can’t ¢t fix tx the real problem
> >> >gt; > > >â€ÃƒÂ¢€œ wœ which is 
> socialisalism inn America (especially in CA).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Scapegoating is an extremely poor (indeed,
> >> > > > >strongly counter-productive) approach 
> to achieving or maintaining liberty.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Philip Boncer
> >> > > > >=====
> >> > > > >From: i4freedom
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >So you are saying there is no cost ($160,744 to
> >> > > > >SD county) or other harm to America caused by
> >> > > > >foreigners? That's 160 THOUSAND DOLLARS for just 3 months.
> >> > > > >=====
> >> > > > >From: [address removed]:
> >> > > > >[address removed]: RE: [ronpaul-93]
> >> > > > >Amnesty attempt again and againDate: 
> Wed, 30 Jan[masked]:42:05 -0500
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >I read your argument carefully. It’s in
> >> > > > >signifiificant part factactually wrong, and is
> >> > > > >entirely irrelevant to the subject of liberty.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Our Constitution applies to ANYONE who is under
> >> > > > >the jurisdiction of the U.S. government FOR ANY
> >> > > > >REASON âۉ¢€œ­ citizen, legal immigrant, iillegal
>
> >> > > >immigrant, prisoner of war, enemy combatant ­ AANYONE.
> >> > > >And the rights it protects apply to EVERYONNE
> >> > > > >EVERYWHERE, as they are individual human rights
> >> > > > >held inherently by all men equally.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Jingoistic xenophobia is not libertarian. Sure,
> >> > > > >you didn’t referfer to ao any *specific* ra race or
> >> > > > >ethnicity; you only said that *all* those who
> >> > > > >are different from 
> “usÃsÃíƒÂ¢Ã¢Â¢Ã¢‭šÃ‚¬? are bad, which is
> >> > > >prejudiced and anti-liberty at its core.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >And support for liberty is not to be
> >> > > > >conditional, pragmatic, only when it’s
> >> > >gt; >convenient ­ 
> thatâ€â„¬â„¢s­Â¬Ã¢„¢s not support for ther the idea at all.
> >> > > > > <
> >> > > > >You should study up more on what liberty means,
> >> > > > >and what libertarianism means.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Philip Boncer
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >--
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> >> > > > Michael Benoit
> >> > > > Ron Paul for President
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Ron Paul for President
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