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Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

From: Reinhard S.
Sent on: Sunday, February 3, 2013 2:18 PM
James,
 
As one of the group I would like to add my 2c answer to your question (without a question mark):
 
It doesn't matter what JFK, Eisenhower or Washington would say if they heard Hillary, Clinton et al say anything because they were after all part of the same cabal that is and has been the problem all along: force-monopoly govt, i.e., Leviathan!
 
There is one today that has debunked the Leviathan myth and I recommend you forget Plato, Rand, etc., and check him out!

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:31 PM, James Reid <[address removed]> wrote:
Mike,

I see your "philosophical" point and while of course I agree, I would like to make a point.  Lets break this into the REAL vs. PHILOSOPHICAL discussion.

REAL WORLD

 Amnesty is a governmental PARDON.  It is forgiving a group of individuals for not "following the rules".  I think you philosophical position would be better served by saying
Lets make all work illegal - i.e, "off the books".  In that case your big governmental control world may come crashing down.  By offering a select group of individuals a pardon
you have done the very thing we argue against, government operating in the interest of specific individuals.

If one favors Amnesty, one favors governmental PARDONs.  That is very dangerous.

PHILOSOPHICAL

Ayn Rand's objectivism was ultimately torn apart by the seventies.  She is correct in that individuals acting in self interests will ultimately lead to more prosperous collective (society).  However, as we all know, and well studied by the Greeks, any collective has MISFITS.  As the collective grows three strong axis develop WEAK - STRONG, RICH - POOR, SMART - NOT SO SMART.  Individuals not on the correct side of these axis find themselves "disadvantaged" .  So they form collectives, in response to their disadvantage.  Collective's acting in self interest quickly very soon out power the individual self interest.  The collectives become an (Oligarchy)

Now all this may work out in a complete anarchy (no government).  Yes a few individuals DIE in a kind social darwinism, those that did not jump quick enough onto the collective interest bandwagon. This is why ANARCHY groups are growing in popularity.

So the group decides to form a BODY to issue PUNISHMENTS, PARDONS and PENALTIES to the, yes you guessed the MISFITS.  As Plato argues, this body issuing the PENALTIES, PARDONS, and PUNISHMENTS, begins to act in either self (Monarchy) or collective (Democratic/Oligarchical) self interest.  Why not ?

What is a MISFIT ?  Why would those issuing the PUNISHMENTS, PARDONS and PENALTIES not pick favorites, or just plain make mistakes.

So Anarchy tends to be in favor these days by thinkers.

TODAY

We have a Oligarchy, where they masses are kept at bay by a select group in power...and when the masses get upset they dish out some gold and toss it in the streets to the PLEBs (us).  They give us cheap home loans (as witnessed the creation of FANNIE MAE proved after the massive shootings of the FORD MOTOR workers in Detroit), or Bush's Tax Pardons of 2001, or Welfare programs and the Food Stamps and extended Unemployment Programs of the past 2 POTUS.

Let me ask the group...What would JFK or Eisenhower or G Washington say if they heard Hilliary Clinton say, "we are their to protect the papers, not the people"

We are long past "Diversion", America is "Dependent", a child a long long way from home,  and there is no "rehab" center waiting to help us.  This will come crashing down one day, and hopefully the survivors will be of sound mInd and spirit.

James Reid

Enjoy this video  George Carlin...."You Have No Rights"


On Feb 2, 2013, at 2:04 PM, Mike Benoit wrote:

Any government that favors one group over another is not the kind I would support. Government should not be involved in education either.
This amnesty question is one of diversion. Keep the masses in argument over a symptom of a system gone bad.
I ask for government to do less not more

mike

At 11:29 AM 2/2/2013, you wrote:
Mike,

Agree on the vague terminology and 60's comparison.  Note to all: <1964 was also before Johnson's "great society" and welfare. So the risk of tax payer support to immigrants in the event of economic downturn was less costly.  Crossing the border -  was a risk to the immigrants and a strong motive to succeed.  Once arrived there were NO freebies from the Fed.

I would add to this...

How would you describe a government that encourages and issues work VISAs in unlimited quantities to "non-profit" organizations to bring in off-shore labor to assist corporations to drive down costs, increase profits and then shield then higher profits from taxes off shore, which then results in high unemployment and high welfare costs that then born by the fewer and fewer people that are actually working.  Then add to that a second Government, tax payer paid program to train English to off shore workers encourage them immigrate to the US and take the very jobs from the people that paid for the training with their hard earned dollars via tax.

I do not call that an 'open border'...I call that a 'cross our border recruitment' program.

For every action there is consequence. The consequence of amnesty is during economic downturns the tax payers then pay to support the newly 'legalized' workforce that find themselves also out of work, and a high cost burden to the previously established society.  Legalizing these workers increases the odds of them losing there jobs...as the employer is now faced with increased taxes and costs keeping them hired.  Which defeats the purpose of illegal labor.

Amnesty is not unlike the Clinton/Bush/Obama  'cross the border recruitment program'.

Truly 'Open Borders' is something that looks great on paper and in theory, but in reality wrecks havoc on the economic free market, it breaks what is known as the economic multi-threading, which is one basis of 'competitive' free markets.

ref: Hong Kong turn of the century via using Chinese workers encouraged by UK business men (drug industries) operating in Hong Kong to reduce labor costs.
ref: 1980's German manufacturers (VW, Mercedes and BMW) pleading (successfully) to the Government to close the borders, as the onrush of new foriegn labor was causing a havoc with manufacturing quality, and actually killing profits in the long run, since these companies cared about the quality of there products and suffered falling sales and higher service costs.



note: a good starter on economics, and the failure of 'global economic threading'  Nigel Ferguson "Ascent of Money".
Particular attention
1: The breakdown and crash of the Global Economy of 19th Century
2: French Bond Market Bubble/Bust, and John Law.  Not unlike the Bond Market Bubble/Bust the USA is facing around 2015.

JR



On Feb 1, 2013, at 4:25 PM, Mike Benoit wrote:

> Ken, you try to frame the argument in terms that are vague and nebulous. These terms like open borders, pro life and pro choice exclude so many other options. For instance we have "closed borders" especially in comparison to the 60's but do we really? They are open into America and closed to get out. Back in the 60's the borders were pretty much open yet we had no problem with immigration. Workers would migrate then the bright idea came to close the borders and then workers would come and stay as it was too difficult to go back and forth, then they would send for family members and etc etc. Immigration is not the problem. Prohibitions against it are the problem.
>
> If this is too much in the form of the Oracle of Delphi for you then I submit that I am a poor teacher.
>
> Mike
>
> At 03:55 PM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
>> So, then come out and say that you are in favor of open boarders, or state what you would do to deal with the problem of immigration.
>>
>> Ken-
>>
>>
>> > To: [address removed]
>> > From: [address removed]
>> > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
>> > Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:44:33 -0500
>> >
>> > It case you missed it I favor freedom and a
>> > system that secures individual rights not some
>> > collective view of rights. I favor people being
>> > able to come into my home as long as they are
>> > invited by one of the residents and that they
>> > mean no harm. I favor the idea that jobs belong
>> > to those who have them to give not some mobocracy.
>> >
>> > I don't favor socialism by punishing those who
>> > defend themselves against it by hiring whom they
>> > wish to hire. I don't favor the argument that you
>> > can't stop socialism so lets stop work.
>> >
>> > I am afraid you don't consider what anyone has to
>> > say as being a contribution to the discussion unless they agree with you.
>> >
>> > I am sick and tired of folks who think they can
>> > dictate to others who they hire or not hire or do
>> > what they will with the labeling of their products.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> > At 12:37 PM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
>> > >Do you have a point? Do you have a position? Do
>> > >you favor open boarders? Do you have any
>> > >solutions to offer? Do you have any ideas?
>> > >
>> > >Sarcasm and criticism only go so far. They do
>> > >not contribute to the discussion.
>> > >
>> > >Ken-
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > To: [address removed]
>> > > > From: [address removed]
>> > > > Subject: RE: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
>> > > > Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:07:00 -0500
>> > > >
>> > > > Yea why try to find out the cause (place the
>> > > > blame) just add more fuel to the fire. Punish
>> > > > employers for doing what they have a right to do.
>> > > > That will work as we know our wonderful social
>> > > > programs will never be eliminated as the only
>> > > > thing wrong with them is the wrong sort of people are getting the plunder.
>> > > >
>> > > > This is so funny close borders brought us
>> > > > millions of illegals where when we had open
>> > > > borders a lot less. With open borders migrant
>> > > > workers went home after payday most all won.
>> > > >
>> > > > Those jobs they come for won't be handle by those
>> > > > who benefit from all the wonderful socialist
>> > > > programs to not work. So lets punish the producers more.
>> > > >
>> > > > Mike
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > At 11:52 AM 2/1/2013, you wrote:
>> > > > >Why the big discussion on where to place the
>> > > > >blame? In fact, there's plenty of blame to go
>> > > > >around. If we agree that illegal immigration is
>> > > > >a problem, we can discuss the best way to solve the problem.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Some seem to be saying that we should cancel all
>> > > > >social service programs because they serve a
>> > > > >magnet for illegals to come here. First of all,
>> > > > >it's a waste of time to talk about this because
>> > > > >it isn't going to happen. In addition, even if
>> > > > >all social service programs were cancelled we
>> > > > >would still have a problem with illegal
>> > > > >immigration because the biggest magnet is jobs.
>> > > > >Making the use of E-Verify mandatory is
>> > > > >something that can be done and it would solve
>> > > > >most of the problem. In fact, it's probably the
>> > > > >only way we can effectively address this problem.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >If someone wants to argue in favor of open
>> > > > >boarders, they should argue for open boarders on
>> > > > >the merits of this issue instead of arguing
>> > > > >against measures to deal with this problem
>> > > or talking about who is to blame.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Ken-
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >----------
>> > > > >From: [address removed]
>> > > > >To: [address removed]
>> > > > >Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
>> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Feb[masked]:26:37 -0500
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Giving guns to people who then go on to
>> > > > >murder? The problem with that analogy is there
>> > > > >is nothing wrong, morally, with you giving a gun
>> > > > >to someone. In your analogy the only ones
>> > > > >committing an offense from a moral standpoint
>> > > > >are the ones who proceed to murder.
>> > > > >Conversely, in the actual situation, government
>> > > > >is taking from the rest of us through taxation
>> > > > >and the threat of force and redistributing a big
>> > > > >portion to people who are not citizens. Perhaps
>> > > > >a better analogy would be you going out and
>> > > > >stealing a bunch of stuff and then giving it to
>> > > > >people and they are guilty of accepting stolen
>> > > > >property. Yes, still guilty, but which is the bigger offense??
>> > > > >
>> > > > >"having the states cater to their needs when it
>> > > > >comes to signs, special treatment, etc." - are
>> > > > >illegals themselves really forcing the catering,
>> > > > >or is it liberal / nanny state politicians
>> > > > >trying to pander to a constituency. Who is
>> > > > >actually responsible for the "catering"?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Those of us who are blaming government in this
>> > > > >whole equation and not the immigrants keep
>> > > > >getting accused throughout this thread of
>> > > > >thinking the weight of immigrants on our system
>> > > > >is not a problem (or favoring "no borders", or
>> > > > >such nonsense). To the contrary, we recognize
>> > > > >the weight of the problem, we just think the
>> > > > >blame is deservedly layed at the feet of
>> > > > >out-of-control government. Those who cannot see
>> > > > >government encouraging/promoting, enabling, and
>> > > > >"catering" to these problems is "clearly not leaving [their] home".
>> > > > >
>> > > > >On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Ryan
>> > > > ><<mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]> wrote:
>> > > > >No one denies the incentive and the "cause". But
>> > > > >to presume people aren't taking advantage of it,
>> > > > >knowingly, and people are just fine with not
>> > > > >learning English, assimilating and having the
>> > > > >states cater to their needs when it comes to
>> > > > >signs, special treatment ect.. is just ridiculous.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >So basically, if I give guns out to people and a
>> > > > >lot of them start shooting others, it's not
>> > > > >their problem right? The symptom (me) is. It's
>> > > > >the same thing. There are causes and effects in
>> > > > >life. One doesn't exist with out the other.
>> > > > >Government welfare, and a hugely large
>> > > > >population ( millions raging into double digits
>> > > > >) of non-English speaking individuals who many
>> > > > >collectively come together and just pretend the
>> > > > >U.S doesn't exist, are both problems.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >It's not 5 people here. This is years of
>> > > > >witnessing this change and lack of care. And if
>> > > > >you deny it, while living in California, you're
>> > > > >clearly not leaving your home. Can we honestly
>> > > > >say here that if millions of us decided to move
>> > > > >to a country and refused to speak the language,
>> > > > >gathered up together and interacted only with
>> > > > >each other, demanded signs for us that we could
>> > > > >read, to drive, to get library cards and bus
>> > > > >basses that after a certain amount of time that wouldn't cause friction?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Why is the U.S, with the most diverse population
>> > > > >in the world so great? People at least
>> > > > >understand English, they've assimilated with out
>> > > > >removing their culture ( unless they wanted too
>> > > > >) and became American citizens first. Take all
>> > > > >three of those criteria away and apparently it's
>> > > > >noting but people trying to find a scapegoat? lol, ok.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Phil Boncer
>> > > > ><<mailto:[address removed]>[address removed]> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Yes, thatâ€ÃƒÂ¢ÃƒÂ¢„¢s what I am saying. T. That cost you
>> > > > >cite was NOT caused by “foreigners�;

>> > > it was caused b by YOUR OWN OWN GOVERNMENT.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >If you misplace the blame, and fail to see the
>> > > > >actual cause, you can’t ¢t fix tx the real problem
>> >gt; > > >â€ÃƒÂ¢€œ wÅ“ which is socialisalism inn America (especially in CA).
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Scapegoating is an extremely poor (indeed,
>> > > > >strongly counter-productive) approach to achieving or maintaining liberty.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Philip Boncer
>> > > > >=====
>> > > > >From: i4freedom
>> > > > >
>> > > > >So you are saying there is no cost ($160,744 to
>> > > > >SD county) or other harm to America caused by
>> > > > >foreigners? That's 160 THOUSAND DOLLARS for just 3 months.
>> > > > >=====
>> > > > >From: [address removed]:
>> > > > >[address removed]: RE: [ronpaul-93]
>> > > > >Amnesty attempt again and againDate: Wed, 30 Jan[masked]:42:05 -0500
>> > > > >
>> > > > >I read your argument carefully. It’s in
>> > > > >signifiificant part factactually wrong, and is
>> > > > >entirely irrelevant to the subject of liberty.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Our Constitution applies to ANYONE who is under
>> > > > >the jurisdiction of the U.S. government FOR ANY
>> > > > >REASON âۉ¢€œ citizen, legal immigrant, iillegal

>> > > >immigrant, prisoner of war, enemy combatant ­ AANYONE.
>> > > >And the rights it protects apply to EVERYONNE
>> > > > >EVERYWHERE, as they are individual human rights
>> > > > >held inherently by all men equally.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Jingoistic xenophobia is not libertarian. Sure,
>> > > > >you didn’t referfer to ao any *specific* ra race or
>> > > > >ethnicity; you only said that *all* those who
>> > > > >are different from “usÃsÃââ¢â‚¬? are bad, which is
>> > > >prejudiced and anti-liberty at its core.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >And support for liberty is not to be
>> > > > >conditional, pragmatic, only when it’s
>> > >gt; >convenient ­ thatâ€â„¬â„¢s‰„¢s not support for ther the idea at all.
>> > > > > <
>> > > > >You should study up more on what liberty means,
>> > > > >and what libertarianism means.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Philip Boncer
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >--
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>> > > > Michael Benoit
>> > > > Ron Paul for President
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> Michael Benoit
> Ron Paul for President
> http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/
>
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> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
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> This message was sent by Mike Benoit ([address removed]) from Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
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> Set my mailing list to email me
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> http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=1
>
> In one daily email
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>
> Don't send me mailing list messages
> http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=0
> Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]
>
>





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Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
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In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
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Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

Michael Benoit
Ron Paul for President
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/



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Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
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In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-93/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
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Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]







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Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by James Reid ([address removed]) from Ron Paul for President 2012 San Diego County.
To learn more about James Reid, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

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