Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

From: Leigh S.
Sent on: Friday, February 8, 2013 12:39 PM
Cameron,
 
Property is probably the most important protection in the Constitution. The Founders pledge their lives, their PROPERTY, and their sacred honor.  The only tangible thing was property.   It represents hard work and frugal saving to a lot of home owners.  So when someone next door or down the street keeps their property like a junk yard, it is as bad a stealing of one's property as the government stealing it.  The home owner loses it, either way, if he can't sell it. 
 
Several years ago, when I was campaigning for Mike by taking packets around to all the Libertarian households in the Santee area, I could always tell which house it was as I walked up the sidewalk.  It was in all but one or two cases the junkiest property on the block.  Another reason Libertarians have a bad reputation with the general public.  One guy even turned down a yard sign even though he wanted very much to put one up.  He surveyed his yard and said he thought with his yard looking like it did it would do Mike more harm than good to display his sign.  So its this "the world be damned" attitude of many Libertarians that makes it difficult to pass around their agenda.  Don't misunderstand, my closest friends are all Libertarians.  That's why I'm memtioning all this because I would like to see the movement grow faster.  Its sometimes difficult to see ourselves as others see us.
 
Leigh


It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Cameron Butler <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, February 8, 2013 11:31:08 AM
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

"Absolute liberty is no better than absolute tyranny" - I strongly disagree.  There are problems and challenges with liberty because people are not perfect, but I'd take absolute liberty over absolute tyranny six days a week and twice on Sunday!
You cite two sides of the same coin but your example only gives one side.  Wouldn't you prefer a neighbor leaving trash on their yard vs. a tyrannical government that takes your home and your yard?

"This is a sanctuary city and illegal immigrants are given a free pass all the time" - I don't think anyone is ignoring that or defending that.  The point is that the rule of law SHOULD be enforced in that regard, not that it is being enforced.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Leigh Skinner <[address removed]> wrote:
Phil,
 
Absolute liberty is no better than absolute tyranny.  They are two sides of the same coin.  If a homeowner strewns his yard with spare tires and other junk and lowers the property value of all those around him, this IS liberty, but without a moral compass for the damage he is doing to his neighbors.  True liberty takes into consideration that decisions have repercussions, and one has the responsibility of having liberty without hurting others.  
 
And have you ever tried to get the police to site illegal immigrants for litering?  I have, when I have seen them in front of Home Depot when they were looking for work, and the police were near by watching them.  This is a sanctuary city and illegal immigrants are given a free pass all the time.  And when I was downtown at Horton Plaza the day Pete Wilson's stature was being unveiled next door, the La Raza contigent was banging drums and yelling through a bull horn to drown out the ceremony.  I asked 6 policmen why they weren't enforcing noise laws and they each told me separately that the chief told them to leave them alone.  I guess you consider the ear splitting noise as liberty.  Well, what about everyone else's liberty for less noise that day?
 
Leigh


It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Phil Boncer <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wed, February 6, 2013 5:03:14 PM
Subject: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

Ryan, I lived in CA from my birth in 1962 until last August.  49 years.  In several different places, mostly in SD county, from Carlsbad to North Park .  So no, not in any “bubble” at all.  Just not blinded by tribalism, hatred, and greed.  Reality is that Mexicans are the least of CA’s problems, and if you waste your time scapegoating them and denying their equal rights and liberty, while Sacramento screws you and denies you your equal rights and liberty, you will never achieve anything useful for freedom in that state.  They’ve got “divide and conquer” down pat, and you’ve swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

 

Leigh, hazy rose-colored glasses of the past.  EVERY wave of immigrants to this country has been resisted with the exact same “arguments” you are using here and now, and EVERY one of those waves has helped build this country.  The Mexicans have, and are, and will do the same.

 

And NO ONE is saying that robbing people, or even littering, is acceptable.  Those are acts that harm others.  And people who do them should be punished (after due process, etc.) regardless of who they are or where they are from.  Some Americans do those same things; are they any less bad for it than the people you are trying to limit?  And most illegal immigrants *don’t* do those things; why should they be punished because some do?  Give the litterers a ticket just like anyone else who litters, and they’ll stop doing it, and let them look for peacable work like anyone else as well, and everyone can have their rights respected.  Your argument is no different than that of those who want to control guns because some do harm with them, or to control cold medicines because some make meth from them, and so and so and so on.

 

All of you, if you don’t believe in and support liberty, at least be honest about it with yourselves and with others.

 

PhilB

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan wrote:

 

Phil, you're living in a odd bubble. How long have you lived in California ?
Sorry, but it's not a "wait for the next generation". The crossing of un-documented people has been occurring well beyond my life span. It has steadily increased over time. The only thing to show is that the next generation doesn't care. That isn't to say all don't care, but a large majority don't. How about we have a field trip and let's go through say, 15 cities and compare and contrast the last 20 years. To suggest Italians and Irish are the same, is quite frankly, silly. My grandparents came here and learned English and assimilated, THANK you very much.

What you and many here FAIL to realize, and I grew up and wen't to school in 5 different cities here, is that there are a lot of places and people that couldn't give a rats ass about the U.S, the law, or English for that matter. La Raza, Aztland Unido, and all the other democratic non-for-profit groups that conceal themselves that rally the masses into what THEY deserve and that they don't have to do anything worth of effort to assimilate.

This bubble you and others living in is shocking. Perhaps in your little areas that you live it's nice and dandy, but for myself and family who've seen the shift and the growing lack of care regarding the U.S and it's fundamentals, we consider this an issue. Don't group me with others who are anti-immigrant. I'm simply a realist.

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Leigh Skinner wrote:

 

Phil,
 
The illegal immigrants of today have been very upfront about not assimilating.  The Italians and the Irish and all the other nationalities during the last hundred years didn't act like the current crop of immigrants.  They didn't march in the streets carrying their national flags.  Instead they enrolled in night school to learn English and work toward becoming citizens.  This current crop take their pay stubs and electric bills to the authorities and get ahead in line for citizenship.  And years ago the Italians and the rest didn't use groups like La Raza to segregate themselves from the rest of  America and talk about annexing portions of America to their native country (the country where they couldn't make it, thus causing them to sneak in here). Leigh

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Leigh Skinner wrote:

 

Bink,
 
You are being rather simplistic in saying one has the right to go where ever they want to as long as they don't trample on another's property rights.  What makes you think illegal immigrants aren't already doing that?  Some of them are breaking into homes to rob the owners.  And they stand in front of Home Depot trying to find work, which in and of itself is fine, but they drop trash all along the long block in front of the store, and I don't find that respectful of property rights.  Neither are the trash they drop between the border and the nearest towns along the border.  This land belongs to farmers and ranchers who have been robbed by these trash spewing interlopers who have also reportedly killed one of the ranchers.  The ICE leaders have refused to guarantee the safety of those who live in this several miles wide stretch that includes a national park. Leigh





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