Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

From: Leigh S.
Sent on: Saturday, February 9, 2013 10:23 AM
Cameron,

I agree with much of what you say.  Add to this that some laws also serve the purpose to show society's almost universal belief that these things are wrong and hurt people.  There are no down sides to these sorts of laws except to the person who breaks them by hurting others, like stealing or murder or embezzlement or fraud.  There are those, though, who use laws as a lazy person's way to make things better and protect people. Without some of these laws, many people wouldn't have the funds to sue when they are hurt by someone else.  That is what most Libertarians I know think should happen...use the courts when hurt by someone.  Can you imagine when someone wrongs you, you will have to wait probably years for the lawsuit to wend itself through the courts?  Meanwhile the perpetrator is free to cause more havoc.  I know, even legal proceedings via the police and D.A. can be lengthy, but in reality, many cases are completed within a year or so.  But you are right that many laws are unnecessary.  Most traffic laws, for instance, are quite unnecessary and this is shown by law enforcement not being around when most of these "offenses" happen, and that is why when speed laws are eliminated, fatalities don't increase.  Most people are basically law-abiding folks and try to avoid harming anyone.
 
Leigh

It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Cameron Butler <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, February 8,[masked]:50:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again


I agree with much of what you are saying, but one problem is that many of the laws and limitations some might consider reasonable and necessary... well, they are just wrong, and often times they have unintended consequences.  Speed limits restrict our freedom but to make us "much safer" -- no, not really.  When Montana eliminated speed limits on most of their roads, fatalities did not increase.  The worst ratings for driving safety are in the states with the lowest limits, not the highest.  A Colorado University study showed that speed bumps cost 85 lives for every life they save due to slowing down ambulances.  Just more reasons among many why TJ advised to jealously guard liberty.


On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Ken Costanzo <[address removed]> wrote:
In this life, on this world, there is no such thing as "absolute" liberty. Even if all government were eliminated, even if all laws and regulations were repealed, there would not be absolute liberty as long as humans interacted with one another. For example, there would be nothing prohibiting you from killing someone, but your concern that this person's relatives would subsequently kill you for revenge would likely cause you to place limits on your actions.
 
As the world become more complex, various endeavors require cooperative efforts. If you want to drive on the roads, you must not exceed the speed limit. A speed limit restricts your freedom, but it makes driving much safer. If you want to operate a factory, you may not dump your toxic waste in the river that provides a water supply to other people.
 
Everyone can agree that people should not be free to inflict harm on one another. The problem comes in when we decide how much liberty we are willing to relinquish in our efforts to assure our safety. Some folks desire "absolute" safety, and would give up all liberty to be absolutely safe. Some folks desire "absolute" liberty, and would give up all safety to be absolutely free.
 
It is likely that people will never agree on exactly where to draw the line. However, it is important to remember that there is no such thing as absolute liberty or, for that matter, absolute safety. It is also important to recognize the difference between laws and regulations designed to prevent people from inflicting harm on others, and laws and regulations designed to pursue an agenda by taking something of value from some folks in order to confer a benefit on others. This is what gives "government regulations" their bad name and makes people angry.
 
When the police were instructed not to interfere with La Raza's obstruction of the ceremony for Wilson's statue, it was an example of government power being used to allow one group to steal the value of that ceremony from others. If effect, the police were acting as bodyguards protecting La Raza as they looted the value of the ceremony. It is an example of government tyranny.
 
The reason there are laws (usually city ordinances) prohibiting a person from having junk on their front lawn is that doing this inflicts harm on other homeowners by driving down property values. This is a legitimate use of government power. However, if there were no other homes for miles around, it would be tyranny.
 
In order to live in a civilized and complex society, some limitations on liberty are necessary. These limitations are called laws and regulations. It is only when these laws and regulations are designed (or used) for the wrong reasons that they devolve into tyranny.
 
Ken- 

 

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again
Date: Fri, 8 Feb[masked]:44:49 -0500


Cameron,
 
Property is probably the most important protection in the Constitution. The Founders pledge their lives, their PROPERTY, and their sacred honor.  The only tangible thing was property.   It represents hard work and frugal saving to a lot of home owners.  So when someone next door or down the street keeps their property like a junk yard, it is as bad a stealing of one's property as the government stealing it.  The home owner loses it, either way, if he can't sell it. 
 
Several years ago, when I was campaigning for Mike by taking packets around to all the Libertarian households in the Santee area, I could always tell which house it was as I walked up the sidewalk.  It was in all but one or two cases the junkiest property on the block.  Another reason Libertarians have a bad reputation with the general public.  One guy even turned down a yard sign even though he wanted very much to put one up.  He surveyed his yard and said he thought with his yard looking like it did it would do Mike more harm than good to display his sign.  So its this "the world be damned" attitude of many Libertarians that makes it difficult to pass around their agenda.  Don't misunderstand, my closest friends are all Libertarians.  That's why I'm memtioning all this because I would like to see the movement grow faster.  Its sometimes difficult to see ourselves as others see us.
 
Leigh


It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Cameron Butler <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, February 8,[masked]:31:08 AM
Subject: Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

"Absolute liberty is no better than absolute tyranny" - I strongly disagree.  There are problems and challenges with liberty because people are not perfect, but I'd take absolute liberty over absolute tyranny six days a week and twice on Sunday!
You cite two sides of the same coin but your example only gives one side.  Wouldn't you prefer a neighbor leaving trash on their yard vs. a tyrannical government that takes your home and your yard?

"This is a sanctuary city and illegal immigrants are given a free pass all the time" - I don't think anyone is ignoring that or defending that.  The point is that the rule of law SHOULD be enforced in that regard, not that it is being enforced.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Leigh Skinner <[address removed]> wrote:
Phil,
 
Absolute liberty is no better than absolute tyranny.  They are two sides of the same coin.  If a homeowner strewns his yard with spare tires and other junk and lowers the property value of all those around him, this IS liberty, but without a moral compass for the damage he is doing to his neighbors.  True liberty takes into consideration that decisions have repercussions, and one has the responsibility of having liberty without hurting others.  
 
And have you ever tried to get the police to site illegal immigrants for litering?  I have, when I have seen them in front of Home Depot when they were looking for work, and the police were near by watching them.  This is a sanctuary city and illegal immigrants are given a free pass all the time.  And when I was downtown at Horton Plaza the day Pete Wilson's stature was being unveiled next door, the La Raza contigent was banging drums and yelling through a bull horn to drown out the ceremony.  I asked 6 policmen why they weren't enforcing noise laws and they each told me separately that the chief told them to leave them alone.  I guess you consider the ear splitting noise as liberty.  Well, what about everyone else's liberty for less noise that day?
 
Leigh


It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Phil Boncer <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wed, February 6,[masked]:03:14 PM
Subject: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

Ryan, I lived in CA from my birth in 1962 until last August.  49 years.  In several different places, mostly in SD county, from Carlsbad to North Park .  So no, not in any “bubble” at all.  Just not blinded by tribalism, hatred, and greed.  Reality is that Mexicans are the least of CA’s problems, and if you waste your time scapegoating them and denying their equal rights and liberty, while Sacramento screws you and denies you your equal rights and liberty, you will never achieve anything useful for freedom in that state.  They’ve got “divide and conquer” down pat, and you’ve swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

 

Leigh, hazy rose-colored glasses of the past.  EVERY wave of immigrants to this country has been resisted with the exact same “arguments” you are using here and now, and EVERY one of those waves has helped build this country.  The Mexicans have, and are, and will do the same.

 

And NO ONE is saying that robbing people, or even littering, is acceptable.  Those are acts that harm others.  And people who do them should be punished (after due process, etc.) regardless of who they are or where they are from.  Some Americans do those same things; are they any less bad for it than the people you are trying to limit?  And most illegal immigrants *don’t* do those things; why should they be punished because some do?  Give the litterers a ticket just like anyone else who litters, and they’ll stop doing it, and let them look for peacable work like anyone else as well, and everyone can have their rights respected.  Your argument is no different than that of those who want to control guns because some do harm with them, or to control cold medicines because some make meth from them, and so and so and so on.

 

All of you, if you don’t believe in and support liberty, at least be honest about it with yourselves and with others.

 

PhilB

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan wrote:

 

Phil, you're living in a odd bubble. How long have you lived in California ?
Sorry, but it's not a "wait for the next generation". The crossing of un-documented people has been occurring well beyond my life span. It has steadily increased over time. The only thing to show is that the next generation doesn't care. That isn't to say all don't care, but a large majority don't. How about we have a field trip and let's go through say, 15 cities and compare and contrast the last 20 years. To suggest Italians and Irish are the same, is quite frankly, silly. My grandparents came here and learned English and assimilated, THANK you very much.

What you and many here FAIL to realize, and I grew up and wen't to school in 5 different cities here, is that there are a lot of places and people that couldn't give a rats ass about the U.S, the law, or English for that matter. La Raza, Aztland Unido, and all the other democratic non-for-profit groups that conceal themselves that rally the masses into what THEY deserve and that they don't have to do anything worth of effort to assimilate.

This bubble you and others living in is shocking. Perhaps in your little areas that you live it's nice and dandy, but for myself and family who've seen the shift and the growing lack of care regarding the U.S and it's fundamentals, we consider this an issue. Don't group me with others who are anti-immigrant. I'm simply a realist.

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Leigh Skinner wrote:

 

Phil,
 
The illegal immigrants of today have been very upfront about not assimilating.  The Italians and the Irish and all the other nationalities during the last hundred years didn't act like the current crop of immigrants.  They didn't march in the streets carrying their national flags.  Instead they enrolled in night school to learn English and work toward becoming citizens.  This current crop take their pay stubs and electric bills to the authorities and get ahead in line for citizenship.  And years ago the Italians and the rest didn't use groups like La Raza to segregate themselves from the rest of  America and talk about annexing portions of America to their native country (the country where they couldn't make it, thus causing them to sneak in here). Leigh

=====

On Fri, Feb 4, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Leigh Skinner wrote:

 

Bink,
 
You are being rather simplistic in saying one has the right to go where ever they want to as long as they don't trample on another's property rights.  What makes you think illegal immigrants aren't already doing that?  Some of them are breaking into homes to rob the owners.  And they stand in front of Home Depot trying to find work, which in and of itself is fine, but they drop trash all along the long block in front of the store, and I don't find that respectful of property rights.  Neither are the trash they drop between the border and the nearest towns along the border.  This land belongs to farmers and ranchers who have been robbed by these trash spewing interlopers who have also reportedly killed one of the ranchers.  The ICE leaders have refused to guarantee the safety of those who live in this several miles wide stretch that includes a national park. Leigh





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